80/160m Antenna
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W7RIV
I'm looking for a simple, and reasonable antenna for 80/160m. What are your thoughts? I know some of you have some pretty elaborate setups. I'm looking for something easy. Thanks, Bryon, W7RIV
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mwbesemer@...
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Have an Alpha-Delta DX-A for 160/80/40 which is a dual sloper and mounted to a 40 ft tower. You need a tower because the tower is part of the antenna.. the only way you could get around the tower is by using a 35-40 metal mast or using possible a down wire from a tree of same height. Generally, on 160m the longer the better. Short wires/verticals and generally poor performers. Verticals are usually noisy on 160m and some use beverage antennas for receiver only, but they need a bit of space for 160. There is lots of info on the net if you do a search. Jerry n9avy
From: "Bryon nnegrom@... [070]" <070@...> To: "070@..." <070@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:55 AM Subject: [070] 80/160m Antenna I'm looking for a simple, and reasonable antenna for 80/160m.
What are your thoughts? I know some of you have some pretty elaborate setups. I'm looking for something easy. Thanks, Bryon, W7RIV
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If you can a inverted l is easy to put up as long as you have the room for the radials and a tree about 60 to 70 foot high
Keith n9vel
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Jerry n9avy@... [070] <070@...> wrote:
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Invert L is easy
======================== de N2MLP Brian Monroe County PA
========================
From: 070@... [mailto:070@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:47 PM To: 070@... Subject: [070] 80/160m Antenna
I'm looking for a simple, and reasonable antenna for 80/160m.
What are your thoughts? I know some of you have some pretty elaborate setups. I'm looking for something easy.
Thanks, Bryon, W7RIV
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W7RIV
I'll see if I can get a mark up of my plot from Google Maps or something, but let me see if I can explain it a little. I have lots of land around me. Though it isn't mine. I sit on about .65 acres of usable space. I have no major trees (anything taller than the gutter in the front yard). My antenna sits on the back corner of my house. It is a crank up tower about 40' (aluminum) with a K4KIO Hexbeam on it. Works really well...I think, this is my first setup. But, I can do a lot on 20 and 40 (even though it isn't necessarily intended for 40m). I have a tuner in my K3. Out back of my house there is a large tree. I could probably get something up in there and connected to the tower. When the tower is lowered it sits about 14' (not including the antenna). I have hesitated doing anything with this, because I do not want that in my line of sight out the back yard, at least not when it is going to be down and drooping. I know to be efficient longer really is better. But, I just haven't found a great antenna that seems appealing and easy to put up without a lot of headache and trying to make things work when I have no idea what I'm doing with antennas. I'm a mechanical engineer with focus on medical devices, and antennas are still black magic to me! What are your thoughts based on these comments? Bryon, W7RIV
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Byron: There are some laws of physics/antennas you just can't ignore. An antenna that is a 1/2 wave length or longer will be more efficient than anything shorter. Sure you can use loading coil and such to make antenna appear electrically longer, but you still have an inefficient antenna... everything in electronics seems to be a trade off; you have to sacrifice one thing to get another. Just like in engineering you can build something better, but it may not be as good as what you had in the first place, but I don't know much about thatld. Did some tower work years ago and the crew tended to "over-engineer" things to err on safety side. Anyhow, years ago a friend and I loaded up a 300 ft. AM broadcast tower on 160 in winter for some contest. Results were awful ... lots of noise and not many signals. Verticals tend to be noisy. Guess that's why some DXers on 160 use beverage antennas for receiving. Used to have a serious 160m station a few miles away which had 9 phased 110 ft verticals with a little tuning shack in middle. It belonged to K9DX and was operated remotely from his house 30 miles away; had a couple tours and it was awesome. All the hardware and antennas were expensive as well as the 80 acres of land it sat on. It gone now (sigh). That was the ultimate DXers station and far out of most hams budget. On the "poor hams" budget, some do quite well with limited antennas on 160m. Would suggest that you search for "160 meter antennas " on the web and find something that will work for you. A word of caution, ignore some of the claims made as every QTH is somewhat different with soil characteristics (soil conductivity, etc.) , height above average terrain, sources of interference, and so forth. Seems like some of the better 160m DXers live in areas where it's marshy near lakes, rivers and oceans... guess you could always flood your yard ? Good luck ! Jerry n9avy
From: "Bryon nnegrom@... [070]" <070@...> To: "070@..." <070@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:29 PM Subject: RE: [070] 80/160m Antenna I'll see if I can get a mark up of my plot from Google Maps or something, but let me see if I can explain it a little.
I have lots of land around me. Though it isn't mine. I sit on about .65 acres of usable space. I have no major trees (anything taller than the gutter in the front yard). My antenna sits on the back corner of my house. It is a crank up tower about 40' (aluminum) with a K4KIO Hexbeam on it. Works really well...I think, this is my first setup. But, I can do a lot on 20 and 40 (even though it isn't necessarily intended for 40m). I have a tuner in my K3. Out back of my house there is a large tree. I could probably get something up in there and connected to the tower. When the tower is lowered it sits about 14' (not including the antenna). I have hesitated doing anything with this, because I do not want that in my line of sight out the back yard, at least not when it is going to be down and drooping. I know to be efficient longer really is better. But, I just haven't found a great antenna that seems appealing and easy to put up without a lot of headache and trying to make things work when I have no idea what I'm doing with antennas. I'm a mechanical engineer with focus on medical devices, and antennas are still black magic to me! What are your thoughts based on these comments? Bryon, W7RIV
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Mike Besemer <mwbesemer@...>
As Jerry said… verticals ARE noisy.
I noticed someone mentioned an Inverted L. I love my Inverted L, but I’ll say that when I had my 160 meter loop, I would find myself transmitting on the Inverted L and receiving on the loop. Neither antenna heard better than the other, but the loop was MUCH quieter. Inverted L’s have a vertical component which contributes to the noise.
If I could only have one antenna , I’d probably go with the loop. It’d be a tough choice, but the sounds of silence are really nice when trying to pull out the weak ones.
I’d love to do a Beverage; might have to think about that!
73,
Mike WM4B
From: 070@... [mailto:070@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 5:46 PM To: 070@... Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna
Byron:
There are some laws of physics/antennas you just can't ignore. An antenna that is a 1/2 wave length or longer will be more efficient than anything shorter. Sure you can use loading coil and such to make antenna appear electrically longer, but you still have an inefficient antenna... everything in electronics seems to be a trade off; you have to sacrifice one thing to get another. Just like in engineering you can build something better, but it may not be as good as what you had in the first place, but I don't know much about thatld. Did some tower work years ago and the crew tended to "over-engineer" things to err on safety side.
Anyhow, years ago a friend and I loaded up a 300 ft. AM broadcast tower on 160 in winter for some contest. Results were awful ... lots of noise and not many signals. Verticals tend to be noisy. Guess that's why some DXers on 160 use beverage antennas for receiving. Used to have a serious 160m station a few miles away which had 9 phased 110 ft verticals with a little tuning shack in middle. It belonged to K9DX and was operated remotely from his house 30 miles away; had a couple tours and it was awesome. All the hardware and antennas were expensive as well as the 80 acres of land it sat on. It gone now (sigh).
That was the ultimate DXers station and far out of most hams budget.
On the "poor hams" budget, some do quite well with limited antennas on 160m. Would suggest that you search for "160 meter antennas " on the web and find something that will work for you. A word of caution, ignore some of the claims made as every QTH is somewhat different with soil characteristics (soil conductivity, etc.) , height above average terrain, sources of interference, and so forth. Seems like some of the better 160m DXers live in areas where it's marshy near lakes, rivers and oceans... guess you could always flood your yard ?
Good luck !
Jerry n9avy
From: "Bryon nnegrom@... [070]" <070@...>
I'll see if I can get a mark up of my plot from Google Maps or something, but let me see if I can explain it a little.
I have lots of land around me. Though it isn't mine. I sit on about .65 acres of usable space. I have no major trees (anything taller than the gutter in the front yard). My antenna sits on the back corner of my house. It is a crank up tower about 40' (aluminum) with a K4KIO Hexbeam on it. Works really well...I think, this is my first setup. But, I can do a lot on 20 and 40 (even though it isn't necessarily intended for 40m). I have a tuner in my K3.
Out back of my house there is a large tree. I could probably get something up in there and connected to the tower. When the tower is lowered it sits about 14' (not including the antenna).
I have hesitated doing anything with this, because I do not want that in my line of sight out the back yard, at least not when it is going to be down and drooping.
I know to be efficient longer really is better. But, I just haven't found a great antenna that seems appealing and easy to put up without a lot of headache and trying to make things work when I have no idea what I'm doing with antennas. I'm a mechanical engineer with focus on medical devices, and antennas are still black magic to me!
What are your thoughts based on these comments?
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W7RIV
I know what you mean about being less efficient. I guess the question is less efficient or nothing at all. That is where I'm at right now. I'll certainly dig into it more. I was curious what everyone here was using, sounds mostly like larger wire antennas rigged in their yards? There are 3 hams in Utah that have outrageous (and awesome) low band antennas. That are arranged in 4 corners, with many, many miles of radials, tuners, etc. They have excellent results. =) They all sit on around 5 acres or more as well. I love the hobby, and struggle with the antennas! Bryon, W7RIV
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Guys in Utah sound like Rhombics. 4 telephones poles a wave length (or 1/2 wave) with a bunch of wire wound around them. Probably needs more real estate. Jerry n9avy
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toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
From: "Jerry n9avy@... [070]" <070@...> To: "070@..." <070@...> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna Guys in Utah sound like Rhombics. 4 telephones poles a wave length (or 1/2 wave) with a bunch of wire wound around them. Probably needs more real estate. Jerry n9avy
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boat.anchor@...
Don't think I can cram that in my available 40' X 40' space.
Barry ---In 070@..., <n9avy@...> wrote :
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If ya build it in HO scale (1:87 scale ) Jerry n9avy 
From: "boat.anchor@... [070]" <070@...> To: 070@... Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna Don't think I can cram that in my available 40' X 40' space. Barry ---In 070@..., <n9avy@...> wrote :
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boat.anchor@...
More like "N" and that would probably go great with my QRP setup.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
QRP rig es QRP ant Barry ---In 070@..., <n9avy@...> wrote : If ya build it in HO scale (1:87 scale ) Jerry n9avy
From: "boat.anchor@... [070]" <070@...> To: 070@... Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna Don't think I can cram that in my available 40' X 40' space. Barry
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Maybe Z if you're QRP !
From: "boat.anchor@... [070]" <070@...> To: 070@... Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna More like "N" and that would probably go great with my QRP setup. QRP rig es QRP ant Barry ---In 070@..., wrote : If ya build it in HO scale (1:87 scale ) Jerry n9avy From: "boat.anchor@... [070]" <070@...> To: 070@... Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna Don't think I can cram that in my available 40' X 40' space. Barry
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JEFF WALSH
Barry ...one of my other hobbies is N scale model railroading ..... I have tried 160m scaled down to N scale and it didn't load up .... Jerry .... I never tried 160m in HO scale so I am unable to answer that one but on the serious side I am lucky and live on 10 acres with no restrictions of any kind ...... I have full length 1/2 wave home brew wire dipoles running all over the place for 10m thru 160m ..... I run the antenna's thru a MFJ 993B auto tuner ...... and it has been my experience that loading 160m thru my 80m dipole gets me about the same results as I switch back and forth between the 2 antennas in real time ....... I figure that the lack of difference now is because of the poor band conditions .... one day I will raise the 160m dipole higher as I threw it up in a hurry to participate in a PODXS contest one afternoon years ago .....seems like I am only on 160m now for PODXS contests .......raising it is not high on my to do list .... hi hi I also have a Mosley TA33 at 40 feet ....... Zero Five vertical {10m thru 40m} and I can confirm that a vertical is noisier I use to live in a deed restricted subdivision in FL with ZERO tolerance for ANY type of antenna so I know firsthand what many of you are going thru and sometimes we have our hands tied as far as antennas go .... so we have to make the best of a situation that unfortunately requires a compromise .... Jerry is right about the efficiency of a antenna in regards to trying to make up the length electrically .... My father was a Ham for 70 years and I will always remember him telling me what good is top of the line radio with a bottom of the line antenna setup ..... He told make sure you have money for the antenna setup also ... JEFF WALSH W3WMU #1673 BUBBAWOOD WORLDWIDE HEADQUARTERS STURGIS, MS.
On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:12 PM, "boat.anchor@... [070]" <070@...> wrote: More like "N" and that would probably go great with my QRP setup. QRP rig es QRP ant Barry ---In 070@..., wrote : If ya build it in HO scale (1:87 scale ) Jerry n9avy From: "boat.anchor@... [070]" <070@...> To: 070@... Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna Don't think I can cram that in my available 40' X 40' space. Barry
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John Bower <poppajohnbower@...>
Byron I get good results 80/160 with an end fed antenna 9:1 Balun and 30m of wire. you can zig zag if you don't have enough straight line. Best John KE4JB
On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Bryon nnegrom@... [070] <070@...> wrote:
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boat.anchor@...
John
I am trying to picture this. Is it coax from rig to balun. Do you have a ground system for counterpoise. I have lots of wire and can wind a 9:1 quick enuf. May have time B4 the snow to try something. Barry ---In 070@..., <poppajohnbower@...> wrote : Byron I get good results 80/160 with an end fed antenna 9:1 Balun and 30m of wire. you can zig zag if you don't have enough straight line. Best John KE4JB
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yes
======================== de N2MLP Brian Monroe County PA
========================
From: 070@... [mailto:070@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 12:09 AM To: 070@... Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna
John I am trying to picture this. Is it coax from rig to balun. Do you have a ground system for counterpoise.
I have lots of wire and can wind a 9:1 quick enuf. May have time B4 the snow to try something. Barry
Byron I get good results 80/160 with an end fed antenna 9:1 Balun and 30m of wire. you can zig zag if you don't have enough straight line. Best John KE4JB
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W6AM, Don Wallace, (sk), bought an old USN communications site out here on the Palos Verdes peninsula back in the 1930’s or so. 100 + acres on a bluff overlooking the Pacific Ocean. He had a Rhombic out of telephone poles, switchable every 10 degree’s!! And!!!...i think he had similar antenna’s on all the HF bands. Once a year he had an open house and opened the gate to his friends. I was honored to have been invited 2X. When he died, his family sold the property for a few brazillion dollars... How many 0’s are there in a brazillion dollars? I dunno...but the land is now built up with $5,000,000 homes... Don was a good guy. Milt N6MG 070-650 LONP #76
From: 070@... [mailto:070@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:36 PM To: 070@... Subject: Re: [070] 80/160m Antenna
Here are a couple pics of K9DX's former remote site:
From: "Jerry n9avy@... [070]" <070@...>
Guys in Utah sound like Rhombics. 4 telephones poles a wave length (or 1/2 wave) with a bunch of wire wound around them. Probably needs more real estate.
Jerry n9avy
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