WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal


Mike Besemer <mwbesemer@...>
 

Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 

This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.

Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!

73,

Mike

WM4B

#348


Charles Odom <ki4vmk@...>
 

Yup, I know him. Told him the same thing, he turns it down,  then the next CQ right back wide.

On Oct 24, 2017, at 7:29 PM, "'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070]" <070@...> wrote:
 

Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 

This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.

Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!

73,

Mike

WM4B

#348


Jerry N9AVY
 

Mike:
 
 
Just slide up next to him a couple kHz, and run RTTY or another obnoxious mode.  


Jerry  n9avy


From: "'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070]" <070@...>
To: 070@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 7:29 PM
Subject: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 
Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 
This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.
Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!
73,
Mike
WM4B
#348



Mike Besemer <mwbesemer@...>
 

Like FT8?

 

 

 

From: 070@... [mailto:070@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:39 PM
To: 070@...
Subject: Re: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 

 

Mike:

 

 

Just slide up next to him a couple kHz, and run RTTY or another obnoxious mode.  



Jerry  n9avy


From: "'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070]" <070@...>
To: 070@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 7:29 PM
Subject: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 

 

Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 

This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.

Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!

73,

Mike

WM4B

#348

 


Mike Besemer <mwbesemer@...>
 

Makes a guy wanna hop in a boat and pin his coax!

 

Mike

WM4B

 

From: 070@... [mailto:070@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:37 PM
To: PODXS
Subject: Re: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 

 

Yup, I know him. Told him the same thing, he turns it down,  then the next CQ right back wide.

On Oct 24, 2017, at 7:29 PM, "'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070]" <070@...> wrote:

 

Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 

This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.

Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!

73,

Mike

WM4B

#348


Randy True
 

It's not my radio Seniour, you must a a bad radio


Randy W4RTT




From: 070@... <070@...> on behalf of 'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070] <070@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:29 PM
To: 070@...
Subject: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal
 
 

Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 

This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.

Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!

73,

Mike

WM4B

#348


ljl2002@att.net
 

Mike,

Don't shoot your radio.  You need it.
I have stopped measuring the width of some of the PSK signals that I have seen by frequency.
I measure them in relation to the width of the Mississippi River.

There seem to be more every day.  I think that many of these stations run phone and forget about the ALC and power when they switch modes.
Just yesterday I was just getting ready to work a DX station (an IOTA that would have gotten me to 70) and I got bombed.  I waited for the tsunami to
subside but by then the DX either went QRT or the QSB got him. Lost another one.

Eventually I will get there but sometimes I feel like a salmon fighting to get to the stream.  Sometimes it's tough. I imagine salmon get frustrated too.
( all you in the Pacific NW would understand)

73
Joe
KA1PPV  #1482


On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 11:41 PM, "randy true w4rttrandy@... [070]" <070@...> wrote:


 
It's not my radio Seniour, you must a a bad radio

Randy W4RTT



From: 070@... <070@...> on behalf of 'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070] <070@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:29 PM
To: 070@...
Subject: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal
 
 
Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 
This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.
Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!
73,
Mike
WM4B
#348



Jerry N9AVY
 

Many signals I encounter aren't really  wide, but just look that way.
 
A simple test is to turn off AGC  and add about 18 db of attenuation to signal. If it's  still wide, then it's the OP's fault.
 
Jerry  n9avy



From: "'ljl2002@...' joe_molon@... [070]" <070@...>
To: "070@..." <070@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 
Mike,

Don't shoot your radio.  You need it.
I have stopped measuring the width of some of the PSK signals that I have seen by frequency.
I measure them in relation to the width of the Mississippi River.

There seem to be more every day.  I think that many of these stations run phone and forget about the ALC and power when they switch modes.
Just yesterday I was just getting ready to work a DX station (an IOTA that would have gotten me to 70) and I got bombed.  I waited for the tsunami to
subside but by then the DX either went QRT or the QSB got him. Lost another one.

Eventually I will get there but sometimes I feel like a salmon fighting to get to the stream.  Sometimes it's tough. I imagine salmon get frustrated too.
( all you in the Pacific NW would understand)

73
Joe
KA1PPV  #1482


On Tuesday, October 24, 2017 11:41 PM, "randy true w4rttrandy@... [070]" <070@...> wrote:


 
It's not my radio Seniour, you must a a bad radio

Randy W4RTT



From: 070@... <070@...> on behalf of 'Mike Besemer' mwbesemer@... [070] <070@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:29 PM
To: 070@...
Subject: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal
 
 
Ok… I really try to be patient with people, but there seem to be a higher-than-usual number of wide signals on the band lately… especially 40 meters.  Just had my QSO wiped out by a Cuban station that was about 2 KHz wide – SERIOUSLY – 2 blasted KHz! 
This particular station is a frequent offender, but tonight he was extra special.  I’ve QSO’d with him before and told him he was awfully wide, and he’d fix it – to a certain extent – but the next CQ he’d be back to wiping out the waterfall.
Nothing to be done about it, but if I didn’t vent somewhere I might have shot my radio!
73,
Mike
WM4B
#348





W7RIV
 

I'm a little curious on what makes a PSK signal wide. Just too much power? Or are there other things? I cannot say that I've never offended...I've never had anyone tell me or message me anything of the sorts. But, I want to make sure I'm playing nice as well. I have a K3 and there is a lot of talk about watching the ALC meter. I've done some tests and no matter how much power I try, 5 watts-75 watts that meter doesn't change. I like to be in the 40watt range, even though I know it really doesn't need it. If I see one I want, I'll try and put it up more to see if it makes a difference. I have a signalink and I think the settings call for 50% volume, other than that, I haven't really made any changes to the setup.

Thanks,
Bryon, W7RIV


mwbesemer@...
 


Jerry N9AVY
 

Brian:
 
As long as you see no ALC action you should be okay.
 
What makes a PSK31 signal wide can be too much audio from sound card, having processor on, pr just plain old using too darn much power ...  no reason anyone using PSK31 should be using a Kw or even 500 watts !  PSK31  is a low power/weak signal mode. 
 
Although occasionally propagation will have a part  which is why I mentioned earlier about AGC and attenuation (learned that one from an OO in CA a few years back and it saved me from sending out lots of OO Notices).
 
I'm sure others in this group may shed more light on the subject.
 
Jerry n9avy



From: "Bryon nnegrom@... [070]" <070@...>
To: "070@..." <070@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 
I'm a little curious on what makes a PSK signal wide. Just too much power? Or are there other things? I cannot say that I've never offended...I've never had anyone tell me or message me anything of the sorts. But, I want to make sure I'm playing nice as well. I have a K3 and there is a lot of talk about watching the ALC meter. I've done some tests and no matter how much power I try, 5 watts-75 watts that meter doesn't change. I like to be in the 40watt range, even though I know it really doesn't need it. If I see one I want, I'll try and put it up more to see if it makes a difference. I have a signalink and I think the settings call for 50% volume, other than that, I haven't really made any changes to the setup.

Thanks,
Bryon, W7RIV



Jerry N9AVY
 




From: "mwbesemer@... [070]" <070@...>
To: 070@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

" We're all done it ."       Not me and if I did I want a lawyer  !
 
Seriously, it's always a good idea to keep an eye on ALC meter.  Have noticed that if I'm operating on the low end of 20m and set power level to40 watts everything is fine, but if I go up to the higher band the ALC meter will start indicating ALC action and the power will climb up to about 80 watts .  Think this might either be SWR related or a fault in radio.  In reverse, going from high to low end of band I will have virtually a qrp signal (about 1-5 watts).
 
Am always ignoring IMD & S/N reports because if we're making contact there should really be no need .  Read somewhere that IMD levels can really only be read when a signal is idling. Most of stations who give out those reports never see my signal at idle.  Tend to ignore  IMD & S/N reports as they don't do anything for me.
 
Taking a screen shot of a stations signal can be a lot of help, provided that the station know how to interpret that data. IMHO, most will look at picture of their overdriven signal and think "Wow, I have a big signal without that there linyear !". 
 
Jerry  N9AVY  #454
 
Bryan,

Overdriving the input (via too much output from the sound card) will cause the signal to widen.  The ALC meter is not (IMHO) a DIRECT indicator of overdrive (or not) but NOT having ALC indication is a pretty good indication that you're ok. 

We all know that stuff will happen sometimes; windows changes soundcard setting all by itself, a knob gets bumped, etc.  We've all done it.  Personally, I try to look at the ALC meter the first time I transmit every day, and when I change bands.  I HOPE that if my signal is bad, someone will tell me.  I'm not going to get offended unless the other guy is being a jerk about it.

I can tell you that I can drive my FT891 to about 60 watts without ALC indication, but I always run 20 watts or less.  With that radio, you can control the HF output power independently, so it's theoretically possible for me to crank that adjustment all the way down (not sure how low it goes.. maybe 10 watts) but overdrive the input and splatter all over the place.

A lot of guys will give you a signal report based on IMD or S/N, but if queried they don't know what those numbers mean.  I pre! fer just to look at the trace on the waterfall and see what it looks like. If you can watch a signal during idle (no data being passed) you should see a nice set of railroad tracks.

If you really want to know about your signal, ask the guy on the other end to describe it to you - or better yet - take a screen cap and email it too you.  Of course, that's best done when your signal is strong on the other guys waterfall. 

Jerry posted a very good hint about how to tell if the signal is really bad or if it's your receiver; I'd almost forgotten about that.

73,

Mike
WM4B

 


On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Bryon nnegrom@... [070] wrote:

   I'm a little curious on what makes a PSK signal wide. Just too much power? Or are there other things? I cannot say that I've never offended...I've never had anyone tell me or message me anything of the sorts. But, I want to make sure I'm playing nice as well. I have a K3 and there is a lot of talk about watching the ALC meter. I've done some tests and no matter how much power I try, 5 watts-75 watts that meter doesn't change. I like to be in the 40watt range, even though I know it really doesn't need it. If I see one I want, I'll try and put it up more to see if it makes a difference. I have a signalink and I think the settings call for 50% volume, other than that, I haven't really made any changes to the setup.

Thanks,
Bryon, W7RIV



Rick - N7WE
 

Well Bryon, you are running a K3 and that is an entirely different bred of cat!  There are lots of instructions on the internet about using ALC to avoid wide signals, but when it comes to the Elecraft rigs, it is almost all WRONG.  That is because Elecraft products are essentially SDR rigs and use a different approach to power control and ALC.  The correct setting for the K3 and the K3s is "4 bars solid, 5th bar just flickering."

Don - W3FRP  (and a guru of most things Elecraft) has a very good explanation of how to set up the K3 for digital modes at http://www.w3fpr.com/download_files/Digital%20modes.pdf It's printable too!

The K3 has a very clean RF output, and properly set up they can run a full 100w out with no splatter - Not that there would ever be any reason to!  But I have pushed it up to 70w out on 160m with my IMD at -29.  

I use a KK7UQ IMD Meter in the shack.  An IMD report from another station receiving you is worthless.  There are simply too many variables for it to have any utility.  The only useful measure of IMD is at your shack!

Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602


mwbesemer@...
 


Jerry N9AVY
 

Rick !
 
Well said . Just another waste of bandwidth ...
 
"An IMD report from another station receiving you is worthless.  There are simply too many variables for it to have any utility. "


Jerry n9avy


From: "n7we1980@... [070]" <070@...>
To: 070@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [070] WWWWIIIIDDDDDEEEE Signal

 
Well Bryon, you are running a K3 and that is an entirely different bred of cat!  There are lots of instructions on the internet about using ALC to avoid wide signals, but when it comes to the Elecraft rigs, it is almost all WRONG.  That is because Elecraft products are essentially SDR rigs and use a different approach to power control and ALC.  The correct setting for the K3 and the K3s is "4 bars solid, 5th bar just flickering."

Don - W3FRP  (and a guru of most things Elecraft) has a very good explanation of how to set up the K3 for digital modes at http://www.w3fpr.com/download_files/Digital%20modes.pdf It's printable too!

The K3 has a very clean RF output, and properly set up they can run a full 100w out with no splatter - Not that there would ever be any reason to!  But I have pushed it up to 70w out on 160m with my IMD at -29.  

I use a KK7UQ IMD Meter in the shack.  An IMD report from another station receiving you is worthless.  There are simply too many variables for it to have any utility.  The only useful measure of IMD is at your shack!

Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602



Radio <radio@...>
 

Byron,

Distortion anywhere in the signal chain can cause a wide signal.   That means the distortion can occur when strong, clean signal is received by a less then good receiver.

…and a strong signal can be caused by a good antenna and good propagation — not just high power.  Nobody ever said turn down your antenna. ;-)

Another country heard from,
73 de Eric, KG6MZS


On Oct 25, 2017, at 8:18 AM, Bryon nnegrom@... [070] <070@...> wrote:

I'm a little curious on what makes a PSK signal wide.


W7RIV
 

I've read that from Don and everything I have ever done with my settings I always get just that, 4 bars solid, 5th bar flickering. Nothing more, nothing less. Seems like I should be able to get some variable actions when messing with things. Not know what to mess with, I haven't and I've just left it. This thread was a good time to bring it up and to check with the experts!

Bryon, W7RIV


Rick - N7WE
 

Roger Bryon-

Sorry for telling you what you already knew!  Once set, the K3 setup just stays rock solid.  The only control I fool with is the power knob when going from QRP to about 35w.  I also have to play with the power when I go to the WSJT-X modes (don't need 35w!) but I don't have to fiddle with the sound card or computer settings.  

You probably read about my Rub Goldberg 160m antenna adventures in earlier posts just before the Great Pumpkin Sprint.  It is such an outstanding antenna (only slightly better than a plastic coat hanger stuffed in the back of the rig) I won't repeat it here.  But I will be most interested to see all the suggestions you get and to hear what you do.  Hope I can go to school on your approach!  73,

Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602