stupid question


Patrick Weatherford <patricknw@...>
 

I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.


Patrick
AE5PW


David Westbrook
 

PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better .. it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001 001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@contesting.com listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently (from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=>1234567890 mapping, which now makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW



Patrick Weatherford <patricknw@...>
 

So the other op was sending PTI PTI PTI on purpose, or was he really
sending 058 058 058 and something was getting scrambled?

Patrick
AE5PW



David Westbrook wrote:

PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better .. it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001 001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@contesting.com listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently (from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=>1234567890 mapping, which now makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW








------------------------------------

Check out the 070 Club website at <http://www.podxs070.com/> for the latest information on 070 Club activities.



Yahoo! Groups Links





ve3iay <ve3iay@...>
 

RTTY uses a fixed-length 5-bit code that was originally developed for electromechanical teleprinters that were used to send Associated Press news items cross-country. Amateurs started RTTY by using surplus teleprinters, and when computer RTTY first came in, it was made compatible with the older equipment. The result is that RTTY continues to use the original character codes and baud rates, even though there are very few of the original teleprinters still in use.

A 5-bit code allows at most 32 characters. Take away the 26 uppercase letters and there's not enough left for numbers and punctuation. A six-bit code could have been used to get around this (64 characters), but that would make every character longer, which would take more time to transmit. Since numbers and punctuation are used much less frequently than letters, most of the character codes in a six-bit code would be used only rarely and the extra time for the sixth bit would be mostly wasted. Time is money in the press business, and in the days when RTTY was originally developed, a more efficient solution was looked for and found.

The solution was to make almost all of the characters do double duty, similarly to the way the Shift key on a keyboard lets you change between upper and lower case instead of requiring two separate keyboards. The two "cases" in RTTY are called LTRS and FIGS, and you change case by sending a "shift" character (LTRS or FIGS). In LTRS case, 26 of the codes are used for the 26 letters (uppercase only). In FIGS case, the same 26 codes are used for numbers and punctuation.

In LTRS case, the PTI key codes mean PTI. In FIGS case, the identical key codes mean 058. If the FIGS control character is missed out for some reason (e.g. noise or interference), the receive decoder will be in the wrong case and it will print PTI instead of 058. This happens quite often, especially under high QRM conditions.

To compound this, there are two different conventions about when to send the shift characters when there are spaces between repeated strings of numbers, and amateurs haven't been able to agree on which convention to use, or whether and when to use dashes instead of spaces between numerical strings.

The bottom line is that RTTYers often find themselves having to decode the letters on the top row of the keyboard as the corresponding numbers: TOO = 599, UE = 74, PPQ = 001 and so on. Most RTTY software has features to make this a bit easier.

73,
Rich VE3KI

--- In 070@yahoogroups.com, David Westbrook <dwestbrook@...> wrote:

PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better .. it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001 001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@... listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently (from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=>1234567890 mapping, which now makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@...> wrote:



I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Eric Dallmann
 

He was most likely sending 058 058.  RTTY is a 5-bit code so there aren't enough combinations for both numbers and letters.  To allow sending both, there's a character to switch between the two.  If you miss that character (or receive it erroneously) you'll get garbled text as you'll be copying letters as numbers or numbers as letters.  Some (most?) digital software lets you convert between numbers and letters after you've received the text.  Or, like David, you can do simple conversions on your own.
 
73,
Eric/K9VIC

--- On Sat, 2/13/10, Patrick Weatherford <patricknw@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


From: Patrick Weatherford <patricknw@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [070] stupid question
To: 070@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 11:12 AM


 



So the other op was sending PTI PTI PTI on purpose, or was he really
sending 058 058 058 and something was getting scrambled?

Patrick
AE5PW

David Westbrook wrote:
PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better .. it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001 001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@contesting. com listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently (from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=> 1234567890 mapping, which now makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@sbcglobal .net> wrote:


I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------ --------- --------- ------

Check out the 070 Club website at <http://www.podxs070 .com/> for the latest information on 070 Club activities.



Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Charlie Trice, K8IJ <ctrice@...>
 

What are the chances of this RTTY thread going somewhere else?

Charlie, K8IJ

----- Original Message -----
From: "ve3iay" <ve3iay@rac.ca>
To: <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: [070] Re: stupid question


RTTY uses a fixed-length 5-bit code that was originally developed for electromechanical teleprinters that were used to send Associated Press news items cross-country. Amateurs started RTTY by using surplus teleprinters, and when computer RTTY first came in, it was made compatible with the older equipment. The result is that RTTY continues to use the original character codes and baud rates, even though there are very few of the original teleprinters still in use.

A 5-bit code allows at most 32 characters. Take away the 26 uppercase letters and there's not enough left for numbers and punctuation. A six-bit code could have been used to get around this (64 characters), but that would make every character longer, which would take more time to transmit. Since numbers and punctuation are used much less frequently than letters, most of the character codes in a six-bit code would be used only rarely and the extra time for the sixth bit would be mostly wasted. Time is money in the press business, and in the days when RTTY was originally developed, a more efficient solution was looked for and found.

The solution was to make almost all of the characters do double duty, similarly to the way the Shift key on a keyboard lets you change between upper and lower case instead of requiring two separate keyboards. The two "cases" in RTTY are called LTRS and FIGS, and you change case by sending a "shift" character (LTRS or FIGS). In LTRS case, 26 of the codes are used for the 26 letters (uppercase only). In FIGS case, the same 26 codes are used for numbers and punctuation.

In LTRS case, the PTI key codes mean PTI. In FIGS case, the identical key codes mean 058. If the FIGS control character is missed out for some reason (e.g. noise or interference), the receive decoder will be in the wrong case and it will print PTI instead of 058. This happens quite often, especially under high QRM conditions.

To compound this, there are two different conventions about when to send the shift characters when there are spaces between repeated strings of numbers, and amateurs haven't been able to agree on which convention to use, or whether and when to use dashes instead of spaces between numerical strings.

The bottom line is that RTTYers often find themselves having to decode the letters on the top row of the keyboard as the corresponding numbers: TOO = 599, UE = 74, PPQ = 001 and so on. Most RTTY software has features to make this a bit easier.

73,
Rich VE3KI


--- In 070@yahoogroups.com, David Westbrook <dwestbrook@...> wrote:

PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better .. it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001 001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@... listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently (from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=>1234567890 mapping, which now makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@...> wrote:



I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW




ve3iay <ve3iay@...>
 

Patrick,

The way you send 058 in RTTY is by sending <FIGS>PTI . The two different conventions I mentioned in my earlier message send
599 058 058 in two different ways. One is:
<FIGS>TOO PTI PTI , and the other is:
<FIGS>TOO <FIGS>PTI <FIGS>PTI . The second one is slower but more reliable.

The other guy was sending using the first convention, but your software was receiving assuming the second convention. So he sent 599 058 058 his way, and your software decoded it as 599 PTI PTI because it didn't see the expected extra <FIGS> characters after each space.

RTTY contesters argue interminably about which convention to use (which is more important, speed or reliability?). At the transmit end, the first convention is faster, so speed merchants prefer it. At the receive end, the first one runs the risk of occasionally receiving intended alphabetic text as numbers and punctuation. For example, PATRICK becomes 0-548:( if the receiver is in the FIGS case. The second convention is much less likely to suffer from mutilated text, but it runs the risk of sometimes receiving numeric text as letters (058 becomes PTI). Personally, I find learning how to translate a few letters from the top row of the keyboard into numbers a lot easier than learning how to interpret 0-548:( as PATRICK.

73,
Rich VE3KI, 070 #175

UEN
48:# =3E(8N PUP HQUT

--- In 070@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Weatherford <patricknw@...> wrote:

So the other op was sending PTI PTI PTI on purpose, or was he really
sending 058 058 058 and something was getting scrambled?

Patrick
AE5PW



David Westbrook wrote:
PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better .. it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001 001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@... listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently (from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=>1234567890 mapping, which now makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@...> wrote:


I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW








------------------------------------

Check out the 070 Club website at <http://www.podxs070.com/> for the latest information on 070 Club activities.



Yahoo! Groups Links








Justin Mattes--KC2GIK
 

I was thinking the same thing
Justin,KC2GIK

Charlie Trice, K8IJ wrote:


What are the chances of this RTTY thread going somewhere else?

Charlie, K8IJ

----- Original Message -----
From: "ve3iay" <ve3iay@rac.ca <mailto:ve3iay%40rac.ca>>
To: <070@yahoogroups.com <mailto:070%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: [070] Re: stupid question

RTTY uses a fixed-length 5-bit code that was originally developed for
electromechanical teleprinters that were used to send Associated Press news
items cross-country. Amateurs started RTTY by using surplus teleprinters,
and when computer RTTY first came in, it was made compatible with the older
equipment. The result is that RTTY continues to use the original character
codes and baud rates, even though there are very few of the original
teleprinters still in use.

A 5-bit code allows at most 32 characters. Take away the 26 uppercase
letters and there's not enough left for numbers and punctuation. A six-bit
code could have been used to get around this (64 characters), but that would
make every character longer, which would take more time to transmit. Since
numbers and punctuation are used much less frequently than letters, most of
the character codes in a six-bit code would be used only rarely and the
extra time for the sixth bit would be mostly wasted. Time is money in the
press business, and in the days when RTTY was originally developed, a more
efficient solution was looked for and found.

The solution was to make almost all of the characters do double duty,
similarly to the way the Shift key on a keyboard lets you change between
upper and lower case instead of requiring two separate keyboards. The two
"cases" in RTTY are called LTRS and FIGS, and you change case by sending a
"shift" character (LTRS or FIGS). In LTRS case, 26 of the codes are used for
the 26 letters (uppercase only). In FIGS case, the same 26 codes are used
for numbers and punctuation.

In LTRS case, the PTI key codes mean PTI. In FIGS case, the identical key
codes mean 058. If the FIGS control character is missed out for some reason
(e.g. noise or interference), the receive decoder will be in the wrong case
and it will print PTI instead of 058. This happens quite often, especially
under high QRM conditions.

To compound this, there are two different conventions about when to send the
shift characters when there are spaces between repeated strings of numbers,
and amateurs haven't been able to agree on which convention to use, or
whether and when to use dashes instead of spaces between numerical strings.

The bottom line is that RTTYers often find themselves having to decode the
letters on the top row of the keyboard as the corresponding numbers: TOO =
599, UE = 74, PPQ = 001 and so on. Most RTTY software has features to make
this a bit easier.

73,
Rich VE3KI

--- In 070@yahoogroups.com <mailto:070%40yahoogroups.com>, David Westbrook <dwestbrook@...> wrote:

PTI = 058 ..
qwertyuiop => 1234567890 ... that's the first letter row of the keyboard
and the number row ...

There's something about a shift in the way rtty works (and the way the
decoder's set up) -- i'm sure someone here will explain far better ..
it's
related to the debate of whether you should sent 599-001-001 or 599 001
001
or 599 001-001, etc .. the rtty@... listserv is a good resource
too -- that discussion comes up there occasionally (including
recently) ..

I wish i'd asked that "stupid" question months ago .. just recently
(from
the rtty list) realized that qwertyuiop=>1234567890 mapping, which now
makes
the "599PTIPTI" junk actually make sense!! Actually helped a couple
times
last night working the wpx-rtty test.

--david
KJ4IZW

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Patrick Weatherford <
patricknw@...> wrote:



I was working the WPX RTTY contest this morning, and an Italy station
kept sending me "PTI" as his serial number. S9+10, clear as day, I
asked for several repeats and he kept sending PTI PTI PTI

Maybe I am ignorant, but what exactly is PTI?

Double checked Contesting.com, there is no other contest going on.

Patrick
AE5PW