Losing 30M


N9JCA Chris Matthews <n9jca.chris@...>
 

As you may all ready know, FT4 is now Operating in the PSK31 Portion of 30M, and if we don't band together, we will lose 30M just like 17M. To me, FT8 and FT4, are nothing but Contest Modes; and like all other contests, shouldn't be allowed on the WARC Bands. When FT8 and FT4 were initiated, the Developers and Operators just took over the Frequencies, with no respect to the other Modes that were all ready in motion. I like to work JT65 and JT9; but due to the fact that FT8 like to control the Bands, with NO respect and due consideration and running excess Power, this is no longer possible. FT8 is usually set up on XX.74, and JT65 is setup on XX.76. When the FT8 Frequency gets busy, then the Operators just start using the JT65 Frequency; IMHO this is not right. So the question is "How to we save the 30M PSK31 Portion from being taken over by FT4"

Even though there is a Sunday meeting on 30M for All Modes; I think we should do this every day. A few months ago, Paula,7PAX was in Arizona on vacation; so schedules were made to accommodate the occasion; in essence what we had, was a sort of "Flash Mob", which worked out fairly well. Maybe we need to think on these lines again, and do it on a daily basis.

Propagation maybe bad right now, but will eventually get better as time goes along

Let me say this. I'm not trying to start Hate and Discontent; but something needs to be done, before it gets out of hand

This is just "One Mans Opinion"

Thanks in advance for taking time to read this note

Chris N9JCA; 30MDC #0333 PODXS # 797

73


Karl Heinz Kremer - K5KHK - PODXS 070 # 2645
 

Chris,

I am all in favor of using 30m more. I am usually calling CQ a few times a day, but usually without a response. I actually go to 30 whenever I change from 20 to 40 or back - and sometimes just because I can :)

When you check PSKreporter, you’ll notice that there is not much activity.

I guess the best way to ensure that there is activity on 30 is to call CQ on 30.

73 - Karl Heinz - K5KHK


Karl Heinz Kremer
PDF Acrobatics Without a Net
PDF Software Development, Training and More...
http://www.khkonsulting.com

On Aug 12, 2019, at 6:38 PM, N9JCA Chris Matthews <n9jca.chris@gmail.com> wrote:

As you may all ready know, FT4 is now Operating in the PSK31 Portion of 30M, and if we don't band together, we will lose 30M just like 17M. To me, FT8 and FT4, are nothing but Contest Modes; and like all other contests, shouldn't be allowed on the WARC Bands. When FT8 and FT4 were initiated, the Developers and Operators just took over the Frequencies, with no respect to the other Modes that were all ready in motion. I like to work JT65 and JT9; but due to the fact that FT8 like to control the Bands, with NO respect and due consideration and running excess Power, this is no longer possible. FT8 is usually set up on XX.74, and JT65 is setup on XX.76. When the FT8 Frequency gets busy, then the Operators just start using the JT65 Frequency; IMHO this is not right. So the question is "How to we save the 30M PSK31 Portion from being taken over by FT4"

Even though there is a Sunday meeting on 30M for All Modes; I think we should do this every day. A few months ago, Paula,7PAX was in Arizona on vacation; so schedules were made to accommodate the occasion; in essence what we had, was a sort of "Flash Mob", which worked out fairly well. Maybe we need to think on these lines again, and do it on a daily basis.

Propagation maybe bad right now, but will eventually get better as time goes along

Let me say this. I'm not trying to start Hate and Discontent; but something needs to be done, before it gets out of hand

This is just "One Mans Opinion"

Thanks in advance for taking time to read this note

Chris N9JCA; 30MDC #0333 PODXS # 797

73






Charles Odom, KI4VMK # 2542
 

I usually call CQ almost every evening around 00:00 UTC.

KI4VMK
#2542

On Aug 12, 2019, at 6:09 PM, Karl Heinz Kremer - K5KHK - PODXS 070 # 2645 <khk@...> wrote:
Chris,

I am all in favor of using 30m more. I am usually calling CQ a few times a day, but usually without a response. I actually go to 30 whenever I change from 20 to 40 or back - and sometimes just because I can :)

When you check PSKreporter, you’ll notice that there is not much activity.

I guess the best way to ensure that there is activity on 30 is to call CQ on 30.

73 - Karl Heinz - K5KHK


Karl Heinz Kremer
PDF Acrobatics Without a Net
PDF Software Development, Training and More...
http://www.khkonsulting.com

On Aug 12, 2019, at 6:38 PM, N9JCA Chris Matthews <n9jca.chris@...> wrote:

As you may all ready know, FT4 is now Operating in the PSK31 Portion of 30M, and if we don't band together, we will lose 30M just like 17M. To me, FT8 and FT4, are nothing but Contest Modes; and like all other contests, shouldn't be allowed on the WARC Bands. When FT8 and FT4 were initiated, the Developers and Operators just took over the Frequencies, with no respect to the other Modes that were all ready in motion. I like to work JT65 and JT9; but due to the fact that FT8 like to control the Bands, with NO respect and due consideration and running excess Power, this is no longer possible. FT8 is usually set up on XX.74, and JT65 is setup on XX.76. When the FT8 Frequency gets busy, then the Operators just start using the JT65 Frequency; IMHO this is not right. So the question is "How to we save the 30M PSK31 Portion from being taken over by FT4"

Even though there is a Sunday meeting on 30M for All Modes; I think we should do this every day. A few months ago, Paula,7PAX was in Arizona on vacation; so schedules were made to accommodate the occasion; in essence what we had, was a sort of "Flash Mob", which worked out fairly well. Maybe we need to think on these lines again, and do it on a daily basis.

Propagation maybe bad right now, but will eventually get better as time goes along

Let me say this. I'm not trying to start Hate and Discontent; but something needs to be done, before it gets out of hand

This is just "One Mans Opinion"

Thanks in advance for taking time to read this note

Chris N9JCA; 30MDC #0333 PODXS # 797

73










Jerry N9AVY
 

Offenders should have their antennas  “tarred & feathered”  !  😊 

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: N9JCA Chris Matthews
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 5:38 PM
To: 30MDG@groups.io; 070Club@groups.io
Subject: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

As you may all ready know, FT4 is now Operating in the PSK31 Portion of

30M, and if we don't band together, we will lose 30M just like 17M. To

me, FT8 and FT4, are nothing but Contest Modes; and like all other

contests, shouldn't be allowed on the WARC Bands. When FT8 and FT4 were

initiated, the Developers and Operators just took over the Frequencies,

with no respect to the other Modes that were all ready in motion. I like

to work JT65 and JT9; but due to the fact that FT8 like to control the

Bands, with NO respect and due consideration and running excess Power,

this is no longer possible. FT8 is usually set up on XX.74, and JT65 is

setup on XX.76. When the FT8 Frequency gets busy, then the Operators

just start using the JT65 Frequency; IMHO this is not right. So the

question is "How to we save the 30M PSK31 Portion from being taken over

by FT4"

 

Even though there is a Sunday meeting on 30M for All Modes; I think we

should do this every day. A few months ago, Paula,7PAX was in Arizona on

vacation; so schedules were made to accommodate the occasion; in essence

what we had, was a sort of "Flash Mob", which worked out fairly well.

Maybe we need to think on these lines again, and do it on a daily basis.

 

Propagation maybe bad right now, but will eventually get better as time

goes along

 

Let me say this. I'm not trying to start Hate and Discontent; but

something needs to be done, before it gets out of hand

 

This is just "One Mans Opinion"

 

Thanks in advance for taking time to read this note

 

Chris N9JCA; 30MDC #0333 PODXS # 797

 

73

 

 

 

 

 

 


David M (AJ4TF)
 

Not to stir anything up, but what is the "offense"?  No one owns a frequency...


Randy True
 

There are Gentleman's agreements for about all freqs and modes, you know that. They are notorious for working anywhere they want. Check out 18.1 sometime .wall to wall FT. There's no need for it.

Randy W4RTT


From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> on behalf of David M (AJ4TF) <aj4tf@...>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 8:20 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M
 
Not to stir anything up, but what is the "offense"?  No one owns a frequency...


Jerry N9AVY
 

Undoubtedly, the majority of hams couldn’t give a flying fig about “gentlemen’s agreements “; unlees it has an affect on them. Such is the new breed of Amateurs.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Randy True
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 7:26 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

There are Gentleman's agreements for about all freqs and modes, you know that. They are notorious for working anywhere they want. Check out 18.1 sometime .wall to wall FT. There's no need for it.

 

Randy W4RTT

From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> on behalf of David M (AJ4TF) <aj4tf@...>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 8:20 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Not to stir anything up, but what is the "offense"?  No one owns a frequency...

 


Jerry N9AVY
 

“No one owns a frequency “  is a worn out cliché that’s been around so long it has long, gray whiskers. Basically it’s a catch all phrase for those who choose not to follow accepted procedure. 

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David M (AJ4TF)
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 7:20 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Not to stir anything up, but what is the "offense"?  No one owns a frequency...

 


Randy True
 

Let's all just become FREEBANDERS!

Randy W4RTT


From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> on behalf of Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 9:16 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M
 

“No one owns a frequency “  is a worn out cliché that’s been around so long it has long, gray whiskers. Basically it’s a catch all phrase for those who choose not to follow accepted procedure. 

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David M (AJ4TF)
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 7:20 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Not to stir anything up, but what is the "offense"?  No one owns a frequency...

 


David M (AJ4TF)
 

Maybe so, but it is codifed in the FCC regulations.   Specifically,  97.101(b).   To be fair, it also says that we must "cooperate...in making the most effective use of the...frequencies". 


Randy True
 

Well, there are many things that are codified in the regulations that are broke on a minute by minute basis.
Has no bearing on what is right and what is wrong

Randy W4RTT


From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> on behalf of David M (AJ4TF) <aj4tf@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 5:16 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M
 
Maybe so, but it is codifed in the FCC regulations.   Specifically,  97.101(b).   To be fair, it also says that we must "cooperate...in making the most effective use of the...frequencies". 


Fernando Davila A.
 

Muy cierto !!!
Saludos a todos.


Dan Morris - KZ3T
 

Yes, what it says and what happens is two different things.  The FT’s are not be fair and are not cooperating!!  They are just doing whatever they want to do and he heck with everyone else.

Dan Morris  KZ3T

I live to live for Him!



On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:16 AM, David M (AJ4TF) <aj4tf@...> wrote:

Maybe so, but it is codifed in the FCC regulations.   Specifically,  97.101(b).   To be fair, it also says that we must "cooperate...in making the most effective use of the...frequencies". 


W5DP
 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP


Jerry N9AVY
 

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 


David, K9DWR
 

* Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@sbcglobal.net> [2019-08-13 09:11]:

are ARRL members. Some life members are even regretting the choice and have
admitted it publicly. Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I
am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and
received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership ! These arrive 2-3
times a month in my email or vi snail mail. My guess is that ARRL is in
An interesting flip side of this: I am a Life Member. You would think I'd get
some special offers as a thank you for supporting. I'm lucky if I see the
birthday coupon; silence otherwise.

Whatever you may think of the ARRL, they are pretty much all we have as a
lobbying body. They are about the only thing theoretically working for us in
Washington.


--
David, K9DWR
#1604 LONP #255
david@graniteweb.com


Jerry N9AVY
 

“They are the only representatives we have in Washington…”   is an old argument, but I think it might be time for another ham radio organization to come online or a complete overhaul of ARRL.

 

As for Life Memberships,  that is a liability for ARRL.  Someone had “genius idea” on that and those who bought in when it was $125 for membership will probably live into their 80’s or 90’s thus getting a “free ride”.   ARRL loses money.

 

After working for ARRL Bureau for 16 long years sorting/mailing QSL cards and several years as an Official Observer, I tossed in the towel. 

 

J

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David, K9DWR
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:25 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

* Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> [2019-08-13 09:11]:

>

> are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have

> admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I

> am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and

> received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3

> times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in

 

An interesting flip side of this: I am a Life Member.  You would think I'd get

some special offers as a thank you for supporting.  I'm lucky if I see the

birthday coupon; silence otherwise.

 

Whatever you may think of the ARRL, they are pretty much all we have as a

lobbying body.  They are about the only thing theoretically working for us in

Washington.

 

 

--

David, K9DWR

#1604 LONP #255

david@...

 

 

 


Mike Flowers
 

I’m still trying to determine:

 

  1. Who are the ‘Gentlemen’?
  2. What has been agreed upon?
  3. Where are these agreements documented?

 

I do know about this:

 

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=d4b3c60d2d60000a147f885bdee88264&mc=true&node=pt47.5.97&rgn=div5

 

- 73 and good DX de Mike, K6MKF, NCDXC Secretary

 

From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> On Behalf Of Randy True
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 17:27
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

There are Gentleman's agreements for about all freqs and modes, you know that. They are notorious for working anywhere they want. Check out 18.1 sometime .wall to wall FT. There's no need for it.

 

Randy W4RTT


From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> on behalf of David M (AJ4TF) <aj4tf@...>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 8:20 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Not to stir anything up, but what is the "offense"?  No one owns a frequency...


W5DP
 

I went back and looked at the current ARRL's band plan chart and they don't differentiate between any of the digital modes, other than to link RTTY with the digital. Only other exception is SSTV which is in the phone bands.

So, it's up to us. Looking at the ham bands charts show the dividing line between data and phone at 18.110. And of course the ARRL code practice is broadcast on 18.0975, inferring that maybe below 18.100 is for CW? Another point, from a practical POV, is that most of our rigs have a 3KHZ bandwith, and the waterfall display is dependent on the receiver's bandwidth, falling off at or near 3,000.

So, maybe, the next slot up from 18.100 is 18.103? I know that 18.097 was suggested, but that falls over the ARRL's Morse code daily broadcasts.

Another point is FT4. Has it found a home yet? There will always be 'new' modes coming at us. So what is a good strategy moving forward?

I don't know. 

You guys are a whole lot smarter than me in figuring this stuff out. 

Dusty
 


N9JCA Chris Matthews <n9jca.chris@...>
 

Dusty et All

I have only been Monitoring 30M as this is where I read that FT4 was going to operate.  In the past few days I have noticed 5/6 FT4 signals operating between 10.140 and 10.142.  This is right in the middle of the PSK31 Frequency.

Chris N9JCA PODXS # 797

73


On 8/13/19 1:36 PM, W5DP wrote:
I went back and looked at the current ARRL's band plan chart and they don't differentiate between any of the digital modes, other than to link RTTY with the digital. Only other exception is SSTV which is in the phone bands.

So, it's up to us. Looking at the ham bands charts show the dividing line between data and phone at 18.110. And of course the ARRL code practice is broadcast on 18.0975, inferring that maybe below 18.100 is for CW? Another point, from a practical POV, is that most of our rigs have a 3KHZ bandwith, and the waterfall display is dependent on the receiver's bandwidth, falling off at or near 3,000.

So, maybe, the next slot up from 18.100 is 18.103? I know that 18.097 was suggested, but that falls over the ARRL's Morse code daily broadcasts.

Another point is FT4. Has it found a home yet? There will always be 'new' modes coming at us. So what is a good strategy moving forward?

I don't know. 

You guys are a whole lot smarter than me in figuring this stuff out. 

Dusty