-----Original Message-----

Mike, you are buying into a myth that both supporters and detractors of FT8

perpetuate. The myth that FT8 is superior for DX'ing, to other modes.

2018 was my "year of FT8". I participated in several on-air WSJT new feature

tests including DXpedition mode testing. I spent the vast majority of my

on-air hours, outside of contests, on FT8. I CQ'd a lot on FT8 and also

chased DX on FT8.

You ask: " Productive in what way?  To work new ones? ". I specifically

checked by 2018 log statistics for new band slots. I worked 4 new band slots

on 160M in 2018 - zero on FT8. I worked 13 new ones on 80M in 2018 - none on

FT8. I worked 5 new ones on 40M in 2018 - none on FT8. And so on.

You also ask: "How many countries did you work on FT8 that you did not or

could not work on any other mode." My answer: I worked 4 ATNO's in 2018.

None did I need FT8 to confirm.

Now, I did work 13 of DXpeditions in 2018 for new digital mode DXCC credit

in 2018. If I look at these stats, 8 of them I worked on RTTY, and 5 I

worked on FT8. But the ones I worked on FT8 completely neglected RTTY - they

never did any RTTY at all or made only a handful of RTTY Q's. I'm sure I

could've completed a RTTY QSO with any of those 5 if they had made an effort

on RTTY.

No matter how I slice it or dice it, FT8 is not a superior mode. Both the

detractors and supporters of FT8 are suffering from the myth that FT8 makes

DX'ing easier. It does not. I tried hard to max out FT8 using any

quantitative measure in 2018 - just look at the number of hours I invested

- and FT8 came up short in every single measure, including the

hard-DX-oriented measures you propose.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:36 AM, Jerry N9AVY

<n9avy@...> wrote:

FWIW   from another list…

 

 

-----Original Message-----

 

Mike, you are buying into a myth that both supporters and detractors of FT8

perpetuate. The myth that FT8 is superior for DX'ing, to other modes.

 

2018 was my "year of FT8". I participated in several on-air WSJT new feature

tests including DXpedition mode testing. I spent the vast majority of my

on-air hours, outside of contests, on FT8. I CQ'd a lot on FT8 and also

chased DX on FT8.

 

You ask: " Productive in what way?  To work new ones? ". I specifically

checked by 2018 log statistics for new band slots. I worked 4 new band slots

on 160M in 2018 - zero on FT8. I worked 13 new ones on 80M in 2018 - none on

FT8. I worked 5 new ones on 40M in 2018 - none on FT8. And so on.

 

You also ask: "How many countries did you work on FT8 that you did not or

could not work on any other mode." My answer: I worked 4 ATNO's in 2018.

None did I need FT8 to confirm.

 

Now, I did work 13 of DXpeditions in 2018 for new digital mode DXCC credit

in 2018. If I look at these stats, 8 of them I worked on RTTY, and 5 I

worked on FT8. But the ones I worked on FT8 completely neglected RTTY - they

never did any RTTY at all or made only a handful of RTTY Q's. I'm sure I

could've completed a RTTY QSO with any of those 5 if they had made an effort

on RTTY.

 

No matter how I slice it or dice it, FT8 is not a superior mode. Both the

detractors and supporters of FT8 are suffering from the myth that FT8 makes

DX'ing easier. It does not. I tried hard to max out FT8 using any

quantitative measure in 2018 - just look at the number of hours I invested

- and FT8 came up short in every single measure, including the

hard-DX-oriented measures you propose.

 

Tim N3QE

 

 

 

FWIW from another list…

-----Original Message-----

Mike, you are buying into a myth that both supporters and detractors of FT8
perpetuate. The myth that FT8 is superior for DX'ing, to other modes.

2018 was my "year of FT8". I participated in several on-air WSJT new feature
tests including DXpedition mode testing. I spent the vast majority of my
on-air hours, outside of contests, on FT8. I CQ'd a lot on FT8 and also
chased DX on FT8.

You ask: " Productive in what way? To work new ones? ". I specifically
checked by 2018 log statistics for new band slots. I worked 4 new band slots
on 160M in 2018 - zero on FT8. I worked 13 new ones on 80M in 2018 - none on
FT8. I worked 5 new ones on 40M in 2018 - none on FT8. And so on.

You also ask: "How many countries did you work on FT8 that you did not or
could not work on any other mode." My answer: I worked 4 ATNO's in 2018.
None did I need FT8 to confirm.

Now, I did work 13 of DXpeditions in 2018 for new digital mode DXCC credit
in 2018. If I look at these stats, 8 of them I worked on RTTY, and 5 I
worked on FT8. But the ones I worked on FT8 completely neglected RTTY - they
never did any RTTY at all or made only a handful of RTTY Q's. I'm sure I
could've completed a RTTY QSO with any of those 5 if they had made an effort
on RTTY.

No matter how I slice it or dice it, FT8 is not a superior mode. Both the
detractors and supporters of FT8 are suffering from the myth that FT8 makes
DX'ing easier. It does not. I tried hard to max out FT8 using any
quantitative measure in 2018 - just look at the number of hours I invested
- and FT8 came up short in every single measure, including the
hard-DX-oriented measures you propose.

Tim N3QE

FWIW from another list…


-----Original Message-----

Mike, you are buying into a myth that both supporters and detractors of
FT8
perpetuate. The myth that FT8 is superior for DX'ing, to other modes.

2018 was my "year of FT8". I participated in several on-air WSJT new
feature
tests including DXpedition mode testing. I spent the vast majority of my
on-air hours, outside of contests, on FT8. I CQ'd a lot on FT8 and also
chased DX on FT8.

You ask: " Productive in what way? To work new ones? ". I specifically
checked by 2018 log statistics for new band slots. I worked 4 new band
slots
on 160M in 2018 - zero on FT8. I worked 13 new ones on 80M in 2018 - none
on
FT8. I worked 5 new ones on 40M in 2018 - none on FT8. And so on.

You also ask: "How many countries did you work on FT8 that you did not or
could not work on any other mode." My answer: I worked 4 ATNO's in 2018.
None did I need FT8 to confirm.

Now, I did work 13 of DXpeditions in 2018 for new digital mode DXCC credit
in 2018. If I look at these stats, 8 of them I worked on RTTY, and 5 I
worked on FT8. But the ones I worked on FT8 completely neglected RTTY -
they
never did any RTTY at all or made only a handful of RTTY Q's. I'm sure I
could've completed a RTTY QSO with any of those 5 if they had made an
effort
on RTTY.

No matter how I slice it or dice it, FT8 is not a superior mode. Both the
detractors and supporters of FT8 are suffering from the myth that FT8
makes
DX'ing easier. It does not. I tried hard to max out FT8 using any
quantitative measure in 2018 - just look at the number of hours I invested
- and FT8 came up short in every single measure, including the
hard-DX-oriented measures you propose.

Tim N3QE

Hi Everyone.
FT8 had scope creep. 
FT8 was developed for Multi-Hop Sporadic Es... in other words bad propagation.
Out here in Arizona it was a godsend.  It is hard finding CW operators on 6 Meters and really hard on 10. I had few if any 6 & 10 Meter PSK Multi-Hops the last 2 years, except for PropNET.
When FT8 sparked up in late April was more DX for me, and the result was the demise of PropNET.
Graph attached:
Over half of PropNET captures occurred on 10 Meters, most of the others on 30 Meters (A few on 6,17 & 80).
When the Es Season for 2018 started in April, you can see it took it took its toll on PropNET. PropNET never recovered from it.

2018 was the first year that Digital QSOs outnumbered all other Modes for me.  Just under half were Digital, one-third CW and SSB then rest (way-down). I guess nobody talks anymore :)
Of my Digital QSOs, over one-half were FT8, one-third RTTY and the remainder PSK... and one lonely JT65 (Troposcatter 6M).
On FT8, almost 70% were on 10 & 6 Meters.... what FT8 was developed for.

Here is where FT8 raises its ugly head.  It acts like FM. The loudest signal can destroy everything around it... and in good propagation it does exactly that.
Groundwave is evil. During the ARRL June VHF Contest, there were a half dozen almost or over KWs near me all on 6M FT8. It was so bad here in Arizona, I QSY'd to the CW portion, worked a few East Coast stations and finally got on 10 Meters and worked FT8 DX there 'cause nobody was there.

My personal opinion is that maybe someone needs to take PSK63 or PSK125, add a CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) with a straight forward exchange. Maybe PSK can compete.
I have enjoyed PSK31 since I worked my first TARA event in 2004, started playing on PropNET (10M mostly, 10's of papers, publications, and presentations) and thought the 31-Flavors event was a hoot with the 10-10X Triple Play thrown in.  I still will miss the 070 VHF Contest.

Hope you guys make a plan. Digital Life is not FT8, but many think it is.
73 Art Jackson KA5DWI #2518

Hey Brian,
I wish it was that simple.
One KW is 4 miles to my east, He shows up for every contest or major band opening.
One 1,500 watt monster is behind me westward. He is a retired engineer who builds amps and spends his kids' inheritance.
When I turn north, there are 4 others within 20 miles that run 400-1000 watt anplifiers.
Because of FT8's narrow use bandwidth, nothing filters them out. The June VHF Contest was all out war, the CQ Contest didn't have great conditions.  I didn't bother turning the rig on for the January VHF Contest. Groundwave is a killer when you live in a big valley.  I haven't even mentioned Phoenix and eastern Arizona irritants.
Only good news was one became a Silent Key, but he wasn't one of the major problems. This is a retirement area.
Good news as well is after about 5 years here in the retired Ham invaded upper desert of Arizona, the XYL has had it with this place.
We will be locating ourselves somewhere in southern Oregon. I pray no one follows me :)  One other Ham near me has already moved there. At least he is not a VHF & 10M nut like me.
This station will shutdown by June, and no idea if and when I will be back up...... maybe never.
Hope to catch you all on Multi-Hop Es before then. I need 44 more 6M Grids confirmed to make 200. I had almost 400 in Texas. WAS on 6 and 10M would be nice too. I am at 145 on Triple Play WAS.
73
Art KA5DWI #2518

True Jerry, but every coin has two sides. 

After my father died, that law provided a job for me to keep my mom and myself (pumping gas nights and weekends) and still pay for my college.  But before that, I had also worked as a "grease monkey" (literally the kid in the shop who greased the log trucks every Saturday) while in high school.  So yeah, even a chimpanzee can pump their own gas.  And a "grease monkey" can finish college and have a career.  Two sides to everything.
--
Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602