Date   

Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Jerry N9AVY
 

Rick:

 

I know that every coin has 2 sides.  

 

For example, my brother was a high school drop-out at age 14.  He bummed around the country and ended up in NYC.  He worked doing summer stock and in restaurants, but tried other things.   He went to work for an advertising agency in NYC where he worked at promoting SAS , Sara Coventry jewelry, and Spanish wines; all went well until someone was looking for a promotion and dug into his references to find that he didn’t have a college degree. Even though he was doing great, he was fired. He later was a writer for some TV shows and comedians.   Fast forward a few years and ended up in South Berwick, ME where he rented out a $25/month old schoolhouse for the summer while he sublet his NYC apartment for $250/month ; his actual rent under rent control was $90/month.

 

He ran into some friends in ME and they decided to Winter there, but they all needed jobs.  They asked what they all knew and answered “restaurant biz”.  Very quickly it all came together and they opened up a place in Portsmouth (NH) called “The Blue Strawbery”.  My Brother was the Chef and the other 2 handled the Maitre’ d, public relations and bookkeeping jobs. Doing 2 seating of 36 per night they all became very successful. They eventually bought the entire building and opened up a chowder house in one part while collecting rents from other shops. Later they opened a restaurant in Memphis (TN).  While all this was happening my Brother, the H.S. dropout, began writing a cookbook which turned into another.  He went on to write 5 or 6 other books, a DVD and did guest speaker gigs (at $ 2 - 3K a pop) and received an Honorary Degree from a University . Add to that he had a small cooking program for WCVB-TV in Boston and was written up in major publications worldwide; even wrote a cooking article for Farmer’s Almanac !

The restaurant in NH closed down after he left to write more books.   There were many other honors he received, but I can’t recall them all.  I know he also taught a cooking class for blind people which gave some the courage to move out on their own.

 

To sum this all up, I’d say for a drop out he did well for himself.

 

I’ve met other people who have had little education and have done well.  One man I knew invented a machine in his garage and went on to own a huge company in Illinois as well as others in CA & NC.   There was another  with same story who started out in his garage.

 

These people are unique people whose minds work differently from the rest of us and may have been bored silly in college.  We need college-educated people, but we also need trades people. So, yes, there are 2 sides to every coin !

 

Jerry  N9AVY

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rick - N7WE
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 7:51 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

 

True Jerry, but every coin has two sides. 

After my father died, that law provided a job for me to keep my mom and myself (pumping gas nights and weekends) and still pay for my college.  But before that, I had also worked as a "grease monkey" (literally the kid in the shop who greased the log trucks every Saturday) while in high school.  So yeah, even a chimpanzee can pump their own gas.  And a "grease monkey" can finish college and have a career.  Two sides to everything.

--
Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602

 


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Rick - N7WE
 

True Jerry, but every coin has two sides. 

After my father died, that law provided a job for me to keep my mom and myself (pumping gas nights and weekends) and still pay for my college.  But before that, I had also worked as a "grease monkey" (literally the kid in the shop who greased the log trucks every Saturday) while in high school.  So yeah, even a chimpanzee can pump their own gas.  And a "grease monkey" can finish college and have a career.  Two sides to everything.

--
Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

K7DWI Art
 

The first time I visited Oregon I thought I was in another country  :)
I hope to live in a semi-unpopulated Grid Square and not off that long.
I want to operate one more Solar Cycle peak.
73 Art KA5DWI


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Jerry N9AVY
 

Art:

 

Keep in mind that in Oregon it’s illegal to pump your own gas… the only other state with same law is New Jersey.  Even a chimpanzee can pump their own gas, just not in OR or NJ !

 

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: KA5DWI Art via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 9:37 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

 

Hey Brian,
I wish it was that simple.
One KW is 4 miles to my east, He shows up for every contest or major band opening.
One 1,500 watt monster is behind me westward. He is a retired engineer who builds amps and spends his kids' inheritance.
When I turn north, there are 4 others within 20 miles that run 400-1000 watt anplifiers.
Because of FT8's narrow use bandwidth, nothing filters them out. The June VHF Contest was all out war, the CQ Contest didn't have great conditions.  I didn't bother turning the rig on for the January VHF Contest. Groundwave is a killer when you live in a big valley.  I haven't even mentioned Phoenix and eastern Arizona irritants.
Only good news was one became a Silent Key, but he wasn't one of the major problems. This is a retirement area.
Good news as well is after about 5 years here in the retired Ham invaded upper desert of Arizona, the XYL has had it with this place.
We will be locating ourselves somewhere in southern Oregon. I pray no one follows me :)  One other Ham near me has already moved there. At least he is not a VHF & 10M nut like me.
This station will shutdown by June, and no idea if and when I will be back up...... maybe never.
Hope to catch you all on Multi-Hop Es before then. I need 44 more 6M Grids confirmed to make 200. I had almost 400 in Texas. WAS on 6 and 10M would be nice too. I am at 145 on Triple Play WAS.
73
Art KA5DWI #2518

 


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

K7DWI Art
 

Hey Brian,
I wish it was that simple.
One KW is 4 miles to my east, He shows up for every contest or major band opening.
One 1,500 watt monster is behind me westward. He is a retired engineer who builds amps and spends his kids' inheritance.
When I turn north, there are 4 others within 20 miles that run 400-1000 watt anplifiers.
Because of FT8's narrow use bandwidth, nothing filters them out. The June VHF Contest was all out war, the CQ Contest didn't have great conditions.  I didn't bother turning the rig on for the January VHF Contest. Groundwave is a killer when you live in a big valley.  I haven't even mentioned Phoenix and eastern Arizona irritants.
Only good news was one became a Silent Key, but he wasn't one of the major problems. This is a retirement area.
Good news as well is after about 5 years here in the retired Ham invaded upper desert of Arizona, the XYL has had it with this place.
We will be locating ourselves somewhere in southern Oregon. I pray no one follows me :)  One other Ham near me has already moved there. At least he is not a VHF & 10M nut like me.
This station will shutdown by June, and no idea if and when I will be back up...... maybe never.
Hope to catch you all on Multi-Hop Es before then. I need 44 more 6M Grids confirmed to make 200. I had almost 400 in Texas. WAS on 6 and 10M would be nice too. I am at 145 on Triple Play WAS.
73
Art KA5DWI #2518


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Brian (N2MLP)
 

I have same problem but filter them out

 

========================

         de N2MLP Brian

       Monroe County PA

 

 

========================

 

 

From: 070Club@groups.io [mailto:070Club@groups.io] On Behalf Of KA5DWI Art via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 4:51 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

 

Hi Everyone.
FT8 had scope creep. 
FT8 was developed for Multi-Hop Sporadic Es... in other words bad propagation.
Out here in Arizona it was a godsend.  It is hard finding CW operators on 6 Meters and really hard on 10. I had few if any 6 & 10 Meter PSK Multi-Hops the last 2 years, except for PropNET.
When FT8 sparked up in late April was more DX for me, and the result was the demise of PropNET.
Graph attached:
Over half of PropNET captures occurred on 10 Meters, most of the others on 30 Meters (A few on 6,17 & 80).
When the Es Season for 2018 started in April, you can see it took it took its toll on PropNET. PropNET never recovered from it.

2018 was the first year that Digital QSOs outnumbered all other Modes for me.  Just under half were Digital, one-third CW and SSB then rest (way-down). I guess nobody talks anymore :)
Of my Digital QSOs, over one-half were FT8, one-third RTTY and the remainder PSK... and one lonely JT65 (Troposcatter 6M).
On FT8, almost 70% were on 10 & 6 Meters.... what FT8 was developed for.

Here is where FT8 raises its ugly head.  It acts like FM. The loudest signal can destroy everything around it... and in good propagation it does exactly that.
Groundwave is evil. During the ARRL June VHF Contest, there were a half dozen almost or over KWs near me all on 6M FT8. It was so bad here in Arizona, I QSY'd to the CW portion, worked a few East Coast stations and finally got on 10 Meters and worked FT8 DX there 'cause nobody was there.

My personal opinion is that maybe someone needs to take PSK63 or PSK125, add a CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) with a straight forward exchange. Maybe PSK can compete.
I have enjoyed PSK31 since I worked my first TARA event in 2004, started playing on PropNET (10M mostly, 10's of papers, publications, and presentations) and thought the 31-Flavors event was a hoot with the 10-10X Triple Play thrown in.  I still will miss the 070 VHF Contest.

Hope you guys make a plan. Digital Life is not FT8, but many think it is.
73 Art Jackson KA5DWI #2518


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

K7DWI Art
 

Hi Everyone.
FT8 had scope creep. 
FT8 was developed for Multi-Hop Sporadic Es... in other words bad propagation.
Out here in Arizona it was a godsend.  It is hard finding CW operators on 6 Meters and really hard on 10. I had few if any 6 & 10 Meter PSK Multi-Hops the last 2 years, except for PropNET.
When FT8 sparked up in late April was more DX for me, and the result was the demise of PropNET.
Graph attached:
Over half of PropNET captures occurred on 10 Meters, most of the others on 30 Meters (A few on 6,17 & 80).
When the Es Season for 2018 started in April, you can see it took it took its toll on PropNET. PropNET never recovered from it.

2018 was the first year that Digital QSOs outnumbered all other Modes for me.  Just under half were Digital, one-third CW and SSB then rest (way-down). I guess nobody talks anymore :)
Of my Digital QSOs, over one-half were FT8, one-third RTTY and the remainder PSK... and one lonely JT65 (Troposcatter 6M).
On FT8, almost 70% were on 10 & 6 Meters.... what FT8 was developed for.

Here is where FT8 raises its ugly head.  It acts like FM. The loudest signal can destroy everything around it... and in good propagation it does exactly that.
Groundwave is evil. During the ARRL June VHF Contest, there were a half dozen almost or over KWs near me all on 6M FT8. It was so bad here in Arizona, I QSY'd to the CW portion, worked a few East Coast stations and finally got on 10 Meters and worked FT8 DX there 'cause nobody was there.

My personal opinion is that maybe someone needs to take PSK63 or PSK125, add a CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) with a straight forward exchange. Maybe PSK can compete.
I have enjoyed PSK31 since I worked my first TARA event in 2004, started playing on PropNET (10M mostly, 10's of papers, publications, and presentations) and thought the 31-Flavors event was a hoot with the 10-10X Triple Play thrown in.  I still will miss the 070 VHF Contest.

Hope you guys make a plan. Digital Life is not FT8, but many think it is.
73 Art Jackson KA5DWI #2518


Re: Contest Scorer

Dan Morris - KZ3T
 

Well, I just needed all the 10-10 QSO Parties set up to accept logs.  We Just had the 10-10 Winter SSB and I’ve got a bunch of logs sent to me because there is no way to upload the logs right now.  I could not remember who else helped David and I was hoping that he would have someone to jump in there and help him when he is not available??

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks Matt

Dan Morris

I live to live for Him!




On Feb 4, 2019, at 11:17 AM, Matthew King - AK4MK <kk4cps@...> wrote:

Hey, Dan - David Westbrook is the brain behind the scorer, of course. He's extremely busy and hard to get in touch with these days.

David Rock assists folks with issues uploading and getting their data to map correctly.

Have you an issue or found a problem, or need some other help?

73

Matt King
AK4MK - 070 #1708
PODXS 070 Club Executive Director

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 7:55 PM Dan Morris <dbmorris315@...> wrote:
I cannot remember but who else takes care of the contest scorer??

Thanks

Dan Morris  KZ3T









Re: Contest Scorer

Matthew King - AK4MK
 

Hey, Dan - David Westbrook is the brain behind the scorer, of course. He's extremely busy and hard to get in touch with these days.

David Rock assists folks with issues uploading and getting their data to map correctly.

Have you an issue or found a problem, or need some other help?

73

Matt King
AK4MK - 070 #1708
PODXS 070 Club Executive Director

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 7:55 PM Dan Morris <dbmorris315@...> wrote:
I cannot remember but who else takes care of the contest scorer??

Thanks

Dan Morris  KZ3T






Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Richard Rohrer
 

I pretty much agree with the thoughts in previous posts.  I have worked a lot of FT8, but have only worked one DX entity, KH1/KH7Z, that I had not worked before on SSB, RTTY, or psk31.  I find usually the same stations on the air that I have already worked or countries that I have confirmed.  My 2 cents. 

73
Dick - KC3EF


Re: Up and running portable in Lake Havasu

Paula K7PAX #1739
 

Well, I have had lots to do since I got here, but I have made 31 contacts on 20 and 40 meters. Ten of those were DX.  I made 7 contacts on PSK31 – 20m the first day, including FL, NC, CT, CA, WA and Japan. The second day I worked Geary in Oklahoma. Haven’t had any luck on 40m PSK31, but have worked quite a bit of FT8 on both 20 and 40, including many states in the US, one contact in Alberta Canada, several in Japan, and two in South Korea. I often see Indonesia and sometimes Australia in the early morning on 40, but they can’t hear me. I saw quite a bit of Central and South America tonight, but again, they couldn’t hear me.

 

But I’m happy having worked a couple of S Korea, and hope to have better success with more seat time. I see lots of interesting signals, so something has got to give, right?

 

And yes, I will be here on Valentine’s Day, but it is also my 25th wedding anniversary, so I don’t know how much time I can give to radio that day  . . . we’ll see!

 

Paula K7PAX 1739

 

From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick - N7WE
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2019 9:35 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Up and running portable in Lake Havasu

 

Paula-
How about an update?  How is the portable op going?  Were you able to get on 40m and have any luck?  Could you make it into the Pacific on either band?  Any DX into Europe or South America?  I think you initially said you would be there for a month.  Does that mean you will be on from there for the Valentine Sprint?  Sure could use a YL contact from Lake Havasu City! 73,
--
Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602


Re: Up and running portable in Lake Havasu

Paula K7PAX #1739
 

Alan, thanks for getting this screen shot. I missed it on QRZ, but at least I have proof!

 

Paula K7PAX 1739

 

From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> On Behalf Of Alan Sorum WL7CG
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2019 10:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Up and running portable in Lake Havasu

 

On cover of QRZ this morning. WL7CG


Contest Scorer

Dan Morris - KZ3T
 

I cannot remember but who else takes care of the contest scorer??

Thanks

Dan Morris  KZ3T






Re: QRZ Featured Operator

Geary McDowell
 

Cool, congratulations Paula.
She and I finally were able to have a nice QSO on Saturday.  I"ve been looking for her on-air and yesterday it happened!
73, Geary KE5IRK


On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 11:52 AM Jim K5SP <jinnis@...> wrote:
Got on to QRZ.com this morning and discovered that our own Paula, K7PAX
is the featured operator today.

Congratulations Paula.

Jim, K5SP



--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director





--
When all else fails, Amateur Radio works.


Welcome

Jim K5SP
 

Please join me in welcoming our new PODXS070 member(s):

2675 Garry  NA6NA

Jim K5SP
Membership Director
--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


Re: Welcome

Rick - N7WE
 

Welcome Dan and Niece!  Great to have you on board.  Will look for you in the Valentine Sprint coming up Feb 14th.
--
Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Ray Clements
 

If you have never worked FT8, it is hard to understand the mode. 

With FT8, signals are sent at specific times, so clocks need to be accurate. Then once a received signal with CQ is decoded, you have precious few seconds to respond to that signal. If you are even 1 second late in responding, the chances of the other station decoding your response is greatly reduced. Thus, you have to pay close attention. Once you make contact with the other station, the software takes over and completes the QSO automatically, but you still have to log the QSO.

Some people have devised computer macros to respond automatically to a CQ and log the contact, but that is about like using EchoLink to make DX contacts. 

Ray N9RWC


------ Original Message ------
Received: 11:42 AM CST, 02/03/2019
From: "Justin Mattes--KC2GIK" <kc2gik@...>
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] FT8 vs other modes - my numbers


Can someone sit me down and EXPLAIN FT8 to me? Walk me through it because
it seems it's the mode with the LEAST operator participation? Phone and CW
you need skill and a decent about of l uck. With PSK you need to focus.
FT8 has the leat operator interaction of the modes

Justin, KC2GIK


> FWIW from another list…
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Mike, you are buying into a myth that both supporters and detractors of
> FT8
> perpetuate. The myth that FT8 is superior for DX'ing, to other modes.
>
> 2018 was my "year of FT8". I participated in several on-air WSJT new
> feature
> tests including DXpedition mode testing. I spent the vast majority of my
> on-air hours, outside of contests, on FT8. I CQ'd a lot on FT8 and also
> chased DX on FT8.
>
> You ask: " Productive in what way? To work new ones? ". I specifically
> checked by 2018 log statistics for new band slots. I worked 4 new band
> slots
> on 160M in 2018 - zero on FT8. I worked 13 new ones on 80M in 2018 - none
> on
> FT8. I worked 5 new ones on 40M in 2018 - none on FT8. And so on.
>
> You also ask: "How many countries did you work on FT8 that you did not or
> could not work on any other mode." My answer: I worked 4 ATNO's in 2018.
> None did I need FT8 to confirm.
>
> Now, I did work 13 of DXpeditions in 2018 for new digital mode DXCC credit
> in 2018. If I look at these stats, 8 of them I worked on RTTY, and 5 I
> worked on FT8. But the ones I worked on FT8 completely neglected RTTY -
> they
> never did any RTTY at all or made only a handful of RTTY Q's. I'm sure I
> could've completed a RTTY QSO with any of those 5 if they had made an
> effort
> on RTTY.
>
> No matter how I slice it or dice it, FT8 is not a superior mode. Both the
> detractors and supporters of FT8 are suffering from the myth that FT8
> makes
> DX'ing easier. It does not. I tried hard to max out FT8 using any
> quantitative measure in 2018 - just look at the number of hours I invested
> - and FT8 came up short in every single measure, including the
> hard-DX-oriented measures you propose.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--

Justin Mattes-KC2GIK
http://www.justinmattes.com








Welcome

Jim K5SP
 

Please join me in welcoming our new PODXS070 member(s):

2673 Dan    AI4WW
2674 Niece KA1ULN  (pronounced knee-see)

Jim K5SP
Membership Director
--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


QRZ Featured Operator

Jim K5SP
 

Got on to QRZ.com this morning and discovered that our own Paula, K7PAX is the featured operator today.

Congratulations Paula.

Jim, K5SP



--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


Re: FT8 vs other modes - my numbers

Justin Mattes--KC2GIK
 

Can someone sit me down and EXPLAIN FT8 to me? Walk me through it because
it seems it's the mode with the LEAST operator participation? Phone and CW
you need skill and a decent about of l uck. With PSK you need to focus.
FT8 has the leat operator interaction of the modes

Justin, KC2GIK

FWIW from another list…


-----Original Message-----

Mike, you are buying into a myth that both supporters and detractors of
FT8
perpetuate. The myth that FT8 is superior for DX'ing, to other modes.

2018 was my "year of FT8". I participated in several on-air WSJT new
feature
tests including DXpedition mode testing. I spent the vast majority of my
on-air hours, outside of contests, on FT8. I CQ'd a lot on FT8 and also
chased DX on FT8.

You ask: " Productive in what way? To work new ones? ". I specifically
checked by 2018 log statistics for new band slots. I worked 4 new band
slots
on 160M in 2018 - zero on FT8. I worked 13 new ones on 80M in 2018 - none
on
FT8. I worked 5 new ones on 40M in 2018 - none on FT8. And so on.

You also ask: "How many countries did you work on FT8 that you did not or
could not work on any other mode." My answer: I worked 4 ATNO's in 2018.
None did I need FT8 to confirm.

Now, I did work 13 of DXpeditions in 2018 for new digital mode DXCC credit
in 2018. If I look at these stats, 8 of them I worked on RTTY, and 5 I
worked on FT8. But the ones I worked on FT8 completely neglected RTTY -
they
never did any RTTY at all or made only a handful of RTTY Q's. I'm sure I
could've completed a RTTY QSO with any of those 5 if they had made an
effort
on RTTY.

No matter how I slice it or dice it, FT8 is not a superior mode. Both the
detractors and supporters of FT8 are suffering from the myth that FT8
makes
DX'ing easier. It does not. I tried hard to max out FT8 using any
quantitative measure in 2018 - just look at the number of hours I invested
- and FT8 came up short in every single measure, including the
hard-DX-oriented measures you propose.

Tim N3QE






--

Justin Mattes-KC2GIK
http://www.justinmattes.com

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