Date   

APE Tracker

W7RIV
 

Everyone, 

Please, even last minute APES, if you do not see your information on this link, please send it to me. If your name is on there, and it needs to be updated, please message me as well.

Thanks,
Bryon, W7RIV

 


Re: Losing 30M

Jerry N9AVY
 

ARRL only has about 152,000 members, but the U.S. ham population is around 620,000.  I doubt that very few of the ARRL members are digital op. 

 

Complaints to ARRL ???   Seems that’s an excuse they use.   When I was an OO  I cited about 50 ham during a contest for operating “out of band” and got a slap on the wrist from ARRL because they would get too many “complaints”.   That told me their stance on enforcement … it was okay in small numbers , but catching too many violators was bad.

 

Jerry n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:16 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Yes it does, popularity. It all proves my point about numbers and band space. The advent of the no-code license had the FCC change the regulated band assignments. That is the point I keep trying to make FT8 wins because of popularity, just like phone expansion because of popularity fueled by the no-code license. I never said it was bad, using digital modes has pushed the state of the art. Your point about am vs ssb is moot all of the digital modes take less bandwidth than phone, but phone still has regulated band assignments. Popularity, that is the point I keep trying to make. You can say the ARRL won’t do anything, because more hams will complain about impeding FT8 than taking PSK’s “gentleman “ agreement. You and I may not like it,but we just need to move on.

 


On Aug 13, 2019, at 19:21, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Being a “no-coder” has nothing to do with anything !   Am a coded  Extra here.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:30 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!

 

 


On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>

 

<D6E304FB0451426599214AB941B1CB87.png>

 


Re: KG5OIB

Bill Maier
 

I tried to spot him for about an hour in the early afternoon on 20m but never did see his signal. Looked like conditions were rather poor in general, because I saw very few signals at all. Got just one contact, and QSB forced an early termination of it.

-Bill  KG5RMJ


Re: Losing 30M

John Frederick <jafrederick@...>
 

Yes it does, popularity. It all proves my point about numbers and band space. The advent of the no-code license had the FCC change the regulated band assignments. That is the point I keep trying to make FT8 wins because of popularity, just like phone expansion because of popularity fueled by the no-code license. I never said it was bad, using digital modes has pushed the state of the art. Your point about am vs ssb is moot all of the digital modes take less bandwidth than phone, but phone still has regulated band assignments. Popularity, that is the point I keep trying to make. You can say the ARRL won’t do anything, because more hams will complain about impeding FT8 than taking PSK’s “gentleman “ agreement. You and I may not like it,but we just need to move on.


On Aug 13, 2019, at 19:21, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Being a “no-coder” has nothing to do with anything !   Am a coded  Extra here.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:30 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!

 

 


On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>

 

<D6E304FB0451426599214AB941B1CB87.png>


Re: Losing 30M

Stephen Melachrinos
 

> As for Life Memberships,  that is a liability for ARRL.  Someone had “genius idea” on that and those who bought in when it was $125 for membership will probably live into 
> their 80’s or 90’s thus getting a “free ride”.   ARRL loses money.

 
Life memberships are a good thing if you view them like an endowment--invest the money and spend the income.

Life memberships are NOT a good thing if you spend all the money in the current year. Then you have a continuing liability that is unfunded.

From what I've heard, ARRL implemented it wrong.

Steve
W3HF


Re: Losing 30M

Bill Garwood
 

Thanks Ray.    Well said.

73,

Bill N4GBK

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io> on behalf of Ray Clements <r.clements@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 10:03:45 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io <070Club@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M
 
We arrogant Yanks often forget is that amateur radio is not controlled by the ARRL or even by the FCC.  Amateur radio is global and the IARU is the global authority, but each country can set their own rules withing the confines of the IARU rules. Although the 070 club is largely comprised of amateurs from North America, we welcome operators from around the world. 

I came across the following recommended frequencies for each of the most popular digital modes. The list was published by SV1GRB - Hellenic Amateur Radio Station. Thus, this plan is based on Region 1, but Region 2 would be similar. 

https://www.qsl.net/sv1grb/psk31.htm

The recommended frequencies for PSK do not always coincide with the frequencies that 070 club members might prefer using, but the differences are on the narrow 30 meter and 17 meter bands. Since these narrow WARC bands have to accommodate signals from a variety of digital modes, it is difficult to allocate a full 3-4 KHz for each of the modes. Thus, there will be some overlap and congestion.

Ray N9RWC

------ Original Message ------
Received: 06:31 PM CDT, 08/13/2019
From: "John Frederick via Groups.Io" <jafrederick@...>
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M


Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!



On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>



Re: Losing 30M

Ray Clements
 

We arrogant Yanks often forget is that amateur radio is not controlled by the ARRL or even by the FCC.  Amateur radio is global and the IARU is the global authority, but each country can set their own rules withing the confines of the IARU rules. Although the 070 club is largely comprised of amateurs from North America, we welcome operators from around the world. 

I came across the following recommended frequencies for each of the most popular digital modes. The list was published by SV1GRB - Hellenic Amateur Radio Station. Thus, this plan is based on Region 1, but Region 2 would be similar. 

https://www.qsl.net/sv1grb/psk31.htm

The recommended frequencies for PSK do not always coincide with the frequencies that 070 club members might prefer using, but the differences are on the narrow 30 meter and 17 meter bands. Since these narrow WARC bands have to accommodate signals from a variety of digital modes, it is difficult to allocate a full 3-4 KHz for each of the modes. Thus, there will be some overlap and congestion.

Ray N9RWC

------ Original Message ------
Received: 06:31 PM CDT, 08/13/2019
From: "John Frederick via Groups.Io" <jafrederick@...>
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M


Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!



On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>



Re: Losing 30M

Jim K5SP
 

Also coded extra here. Also 20 years USN as a Radioman. Operated Ship/shore cw while at NAVCOMMSTA Puget Sound. 

Jim K5SP 



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S10e, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...>
Date: 8/13/19 7:21 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

Being a “no-coder” has nothing to do with anything !   Am a coded  Extra here.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:30 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!

 

 


On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>

 


--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


Re: Losing 30M

Jerry N9AVY
 

No, but I helped invent dirt.  😊

 

Jerry

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jim K5SP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:30 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I am beginning to think that when God said "Let their be light"; that you were there to throw the switch, Jerry!

 

 

 

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S10e, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...>

Date: 8/13/19 5:55 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: 070Club@groups.io

Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groupsio
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 


--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director

 


Re: Losing 30M

Jerry N9AVY
 

Being a “no-coder” has nothing to do with anything !   Am a coded  Extra here.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:30 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!

 

 


On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>

 


Re: Losing 30M

John Frederick <jafrederick@...>
 

Guys FT8 signals out number psk/cw/ssb 10:1 in numbers count. Go to Club Log and look at the FT8 to other ratio. You can yell and scream about an arrogant software developer, but he had to choose something. Since there weren’t a lot of PSK traces on the waterfall the rest is history. My simple observations are that it is the same 6 stations on PSK, I love operating PSK and try to use it, but FT8 is more popular period. You can’t change that. I was first licensed in the 70’s when hams rag chewed and nets were on 75m with all the alligators. Now nets are everywhere and everybody just wants their signal report and a contact on LOTW. You can site the thousands of documents that identify the PSK frequencies, but it doesn’t matter! We took CW frequencies because PSK was more popular, and how many of you are no-code licensees, now FT8 is more popular and we lose. You all know that is how the world works, think about it. We don’t want you here in the United States unless your a Doctor from India. Winners and losers folks, FT8 won. Like the man said, just the facts!



On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 

<25A26BD507F9443A8F78FC79A4496854.png>


Re: Losing 30M

Jim K5SP
 

I am beginning to think that when God said "Let their be light"; that you were there to throw the switch, Jerry!



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S10e, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...>
Date: 8/13/19 5:55 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groupsio
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 


--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


Re: Losing 30M

Jerry N9AVY
 

That’s true bck in the 50’s the AM had a major “war” with SSBers and SSB eventually won out.  It was because of bandwidth… AM takes up twice the spectrum that SSB does.  Today AM signals are few and far between. Was there in late 50’s and saw it happen.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Frederick via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:48 PM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

 

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

 


Re: Losing 30M

Dan Morris - KZ3T
 

Well stated Jim — I agree, the solution is not to get over it and move.    The people who decided to arbitrarily pick frequencies for their new modes had no consideration for anyone else at all but themselves or himself and that is pretty rude of him/them.

Dan Morris  KZ3T

I live to live for Him!



On Aug 13, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Jim K5SP <jinnis@...> wrote:

Really? That is your solution: "Get over it and move".  Do you have any idea how many publications, websites, and other sources of information list the frequencies for PSK operation in the bands.  A monumental task to track and change all those documents.  Yet, a simple coding change by the arrogant developer of that software would fix everything.   Get over it and move is not a solution.  

I have communicated with Section Managers and above trying to get some action on the arbitrary assignment of the FT frequencies in already slots used by other modes by "Gentlemen's" Agreement.  

Please reconsider your statement.

Jim K5SP

On 8/13/2019 2:48 PM, John Frederick via Groups.Io wrote:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.
These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 
 
This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.
 
Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.
 
Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.
 
So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)
 
So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.
 
Jerry  n9avy
 
 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M
 
These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty
W5DP
 
<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

-- 
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


Re: Losing 30M

Jim K5SP
 

Really? That is your solution: "Get over it and move".  Do you have any idea how many publications, websites, and other sources of information list the frequencies for PSK operation in the bands.  A monumental task to track and change all those documents.  Yet, a simple coding change by the arrogant developer of that software would fix everything.   Get over it and move is not a solution. 

I have communicated with Section Managers and above trying to get some action on the arbitrary assignment of the FT frequencies in already slots used by other modes by "Gentlemen's" Agreement. 

Please reconsider your statement.

Jim K5SP

On 8/13/2019 2:48 PM, John Frederick via Groups.Io wrote:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>

--
Jim,  K5SP #483
Member Services Director


Re: Losing 30M

Rick - N7WE
 

John-
I'm sorry to hear you have been trying to work PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts.  Did you have a chance to get on during the Firecracker Sprint?  There were 40 logs submitted for that one.  How about the Endorsement Daze last weekend?  There were lots of traces on 20 and 40 and some on 80 as well.  A lot of 070 members had a great time.  The Pontoon Portable APE guys handed out lots of APE Chaser contacts.  Hang in there.  There is lots of PSK still going on - and with the exception of 17m, mostly where we have always operated PSK.
--
Rick - N7WE
070 - #1602


Re: Losing 30M

John Frederick <jafrederick@...>
 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the AM guys said the same thing about SSB in 1950. FT8 is more popular operating mode than PSK so we lose out because of simple numbers. Get over it, move your PSK operation somewhere else and get the CW guys mad like we did when we took over 7.040. I know this is not popular, but it is reality. I have been trying to operate PSK for the past couple of months with no contacts. Please move on.

John, N8GOU


On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Jerry N9AVY <n9avy@...> wrote:

Yes, the “Gentlemen’s Agreements” were set up by the ARRL back when it saw Amateur Radio in a different light.

These agreements were a way for Amateurs to live in relative harmony on the bands and it worked well until the present when ARRL jumped on the FT8 bandwagon and started promoting FT modes as a means to work DX, grids, etc. 

 

This has caused a blatant disregard for other modes and has created a “CB mentality” that FT mode operators can operate anywhere they please. This was another ARRL created disaster in the vein of “incentive licensing”.

 

Today, ARRL is trying to do “damage control” because they are losing members at a faster pace than expected. Of the 620,000 U.S. hams only about 152,000 are ARRL members.  Some life members are even regretting the choice and have admitted it publicly.  Since I dropped ARRL membership about 2 years ago , I am bombarded monthly with “special offers” on membership like join today and received this ARRL book free or 3 months free membership !  These arrive 2-3 times a month in my email or vi snail mail.   My guess is that ARRL is in trouble. Add to this that many new hams don’t feel the need to join ARRL and it translates to declining membership.

 

Back to the present discussion …  There are several cases of violations of FCC Part 97 (available on line) which are violations, depending on interpretation.  One of the frequent ones I see regularly is the failure to ID when signing out of a QSO.  This also applies to PSK31.  Quite often I will be copying the mail and see a station simply end with “73” and no call sign – a violation. The rule is at beginning and end of transmission plus every 10 minutes in between.  No excuse, just sloppy, ignorant operators. Perhaps this will change with new FCC connected program, but seems doubtful.

 

So, not much can be done with the FT modes “violators”  except try to fill our portion of bands with activity and hope it chases many away from these “incursions”.  Setting up beacons might be a possible solution, BUT that would be just plain old illegal since automatic control of beacons below 10 meters is NOT allowed. (Just in case anyone had that thought.)

 

So, the only alternative left is to live with the FT modes until some legislation comes down from FCC…  that will probably be never.

 

Jerry  n9avy

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: W5DP
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:38 AM
To: 070Club@groups.io
Subject: Re: [070Club] Losing 30M

 

These gentlemen’s agreements were setup and promoted by the ARRL. Right? It seems to that’s the way it is. I have a chart from the ARRL where the different modes are acceptable in the different portions of the band.

 

Question is: How many ppl are members of the ARRL? Are they losing memberships? Maybe that is why there is so much disinterest in the gentlemen’s agreements for the different modes.

 

Not sure I’m right on this, someone can fact check me.

 

Dusty

W5DP

 

<9283DF7B52A54D6E8EC4450A6DBB2014.png>


Re: Losing 30M

W5DP
 

Chris, roger that! I call CQ on 30 meters everyday, before I finally end up settling on 20 meters, where I know I will find activity. I know that 30 meters is open, as it falls between 20m and 40m. So, it's just a matter of no activity. FT8 can be heard on 10.136 and above, and activity there also indicates an open band.

We just need to get on more!

Thanks for your concern!

Dusty
W5DP


Re: Losing 30M

N9JCA Chris Matthews <n9jca.chris@...>
 

Dusty et All

I have only been Monitoring 30M as this is where I read that FT4 was going to operate.  In the past few days I have noticed 5/6 FT4 signals operating between 10.140 and 10.142.  This is right in the middle of the PSK31 Frequency.

Chris N9JCA PODXS # 797

73


On 8/13/19 1:36 PM, W5DP wrote:
I went back and looked at the current ARRL's band plan chart and they don't differentiate between any of the digital modes, other than to link RTTY with the digital. Only other exception is SSTV which is in the phone bands.

So, it's up to us. Looking at the ham bands charts show the dividing line between data and phone at 18.110. And of course the ARRL code practice is broadcast on 18.0975, inferring that maybe below 18.100 is for CW? Another point, from a practical POV, is that most of our rigs have a 3KHZ bandwith, and the waterfall display is dependent on the receiver's bandwidth, falling off at or near 3,000.

So, maybe, the next slot up from 18.100 is 18.103? I know that 18.097 was suggested, but that falls over the ARRL's Morse code daily broadcasts.

Another point is FT4. Has it found a home yet? There will always be 'new' modes coming at us. So what is a good strategy moving forward?

I don't know. 

You guys are a whole lot smarter than me in figuring this stuff out. 

Dusty
 


Re: Losing 30M

W5DP
 

I went back and looked at the current ARRL's band plan chart and they don't differentiate between any of the digital modes, other than to link RTTY with the digital. Only other exception is SSTV which is in the phone bands.

So, it's up to us. Looking at the ham bands charts show the dividing line between data and phone at 18.110. And of course the ARRL code practice is broadcast on 18.0975, inferring that maybe below 18.100 is for CW? Another point, from a practical POV, is that most of our rigs have a 3KHZ bandwith, and the waterfall display is dependent on the receiver's bandwidth, falling off at or near 3,000.

So, maybe, the next slot up from 18.100 is 18.103? I know that 18.097 was suggested, but that falls over the ARRL's Morse code daily broadcasts.

Another point is FT4. Has it found a home yet? There will always be 'new' modes coming at us. So what is a good strategy moving forward?

I don't know. 

You guys are a whole lot smarter than me in figuring this stuff out. 

Dusty
 

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