Date   

Re: OT digital clock?

Scott Monks
 

The software sets the UTC time as "-" so many hours (-6hr normal time in my case) based on the computer clock.  Since the computer clock changes when the U.S. changes DST (there is no automatic time clock for reference to Mexican time that I know of--only the 3 that my mac OS system recognizes), the program is 1hr off for the time interval when the U.S. and Mexico are out of sync. 

I can, of course, tell the software to use a different offset during that 2-week or so period, but I have forgotten several times and I end up with a number of QSOs logged at the incorrect time--which means I have to waste precious operating time manually correcting them (this also occurred when I used a "daily" paper log because I used the computer as my clock!--bad me!). 

I think the best "insurance" is to get a 24-hr digital clock with battery and set it to UTC as a second check to toggle my aging memory!  Which brings us full circle back to the original topic of which clock to buy!  hi, hi!

Thanks all for your comments

73 and look for me on the waterfall
Scott  AA0AA; XE1/AA0AA



From: "nf8i@..."
To: 070@...
Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2013 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [070] OT digital clock?

 
I'm a little confused by the situation you describe.  If I understand you correctly, when your clock changes for DST (at the wrong time, because you're in Mexico), your ham radio software no longer computes UTC correctly?

Your geographic location and its time zone should have no bearing on your computer's knowledge of UTC, as long as the computer knows what time zone it's tracking.  You could be in Beijing, or Quebec, or Berlin, and you computer could be set on Central Daylight Time, useless to your current location, but as long as it knows it's on CDT and that CDT time is the correct time in the Central Time Zone, your computer should calculate UTC correctly.  The same should still apply when on Central Standard Time, or British Summer Time, or any other time zone.

If your logging software is not computing UTC correctly when your computer is displaying the correct time in whatever time zone it thinks it's using, you should seriously consider new logging software.  That isn't a clock problem; it's a problem of your logging software not knowing how to compute UTC.

The easy alternative would be to set your computer in UTC, disable adjustments for DST, and rely on another clock for local time.

73 de NF8I,

~James



Re: OT digital clock?

Bill Morton
 

Robert, 
If you put in a new BIOS battery (very old computer had a battery pack, more modern have a 2032, 2016 or similar battery) which is located on the mother board that time loss problem will go away.

73
Bill
W4ASE

Bill Morton
Sent from my mobile device
Please excuse any miispillings


On Dec 8, 2013, at 2:18 PM, "Robert Johnstone" <shopr3@...> wrote:

 

Here is more confusion.  I have an old computer I constantly reset to Oct 1989 so when I refil the inkjet cartridges the printer wont think they are expired (EPSON) and quit printing. Robert kd0fip #1396


From: David Rock <david@...>
To: "070@..." <070@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [070] OT digital clock?

 
* Scott Monks <cq_dx_de_aa0aa@...> [2013-12-07 14:49]:
>
> Thanks for all of the suggestions, but I didn't explain well enough
> (as usual!!).
>
> ...If you move or travel, the UTC will be correct, even if your clock
> shows the wrong local time...Daylight Saving Time (or Summer Time, if
> you're so inclined) works correctly.......Personally, my computer is
> set for local time, which is currently Eastern Standard Time with DST
> adjustments as needed
>
> This is where the problem comes in; I am usually in Mexico when
> Daylight Savings Time changes and, for some unfathomable reason,
> Mexico changes DST on different days than the U.S. does. 

Scott, it sounds to me like you have already described the problem. You
are using a USA timezone while you are in Mexico. You can't expect your
computer to behave correctly if you don't give it the correct
information. If you set the timezone to be correct for your location in
Mexico, the software you use will work correctly. If you leave it on
USA Eastern, it won't.

Glad you found an alternative, but you are just going to have to live
with the issue if you don't set your system correctly. :-)

Jerry,

He got the responses he did because we see the larger picture of his
computer mot working properly, which is an overall concern. He
shouldn't be having clock issues in the first place. Just masking the
problem with a "different clock" is not in his best interests. Clock
issues on a computer have a bad habit of causing unintended problems if
not addressed. In my case, I felt it more appropriate to understand the
full situation rather than just blindly recommend a clock. My
recommendation was to fix the existing clock instead, and gave some
options on how to check/verify what's going on.

73

--
David, K9DWR
#1604
david@...



Re: OT digital clock?

Robert Johnstone
 

Here is more confusion.  I have an old computer I constantly reset to Oct 1989 so when I refil the inkjet cartridges the printer wont think they are expired (EPSON) and quit printing. Robert kd0fip #1396


From: David Rock
To: "070@..." <070@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [070] OT digital clock?

 
* Scott Monks >
> Thanks for all of the suggestions, but I didn't explain well enough
> (as usual!!).
>
> ...If you move or travel, the UTC will be correct, even if your clock
> shows the wrong local time...Daylight Saving Time (or Summer Time, if
> you're so inclined) works correctly.......Personally, my computer is
> set for local time, which is currently Eastern Standard Time with DST
> adjustments as needed
>
> This is where the problem comes in; I am usually in Mexico when
> Daylight Savings Time changes and, for some unfathomable reason,
> Mexico changes DST on different days than the U.S. does. 

Scott, it sounds to me like you have already described the problem. You
are using a USA timezone while you are in Mexico. You can't expect your
computer to behave correctly if you don't give it the correct
information. If you set the timezone to be correct for your location in
Mexico, the software you use will work correctly. If you leave it on
USA Eastern, it won't.

Glad you found an alternative, but you are just going to have to live
with the issue if you don't set your system correctly. :-)

Jerry,

He got the responses he did because we see the larger picture of his
computer mot working properly, which is an overall concern. He
shouldn't be having clock issues in the first place. Just masking the
problem with a "different clock" is not in his best interests. Clock
issues on a computer have a bad habit of causing unintended problems if
not addressed. In my case, I felt it more appropriate to understand the
full situation rather than just blindly recommend a clock. My
recommendation was to fix the existing clock instead, and gave some
options on how to check/verify what's going on.

73

--
David, K9DWR
#1604
david@...



Re: OT digital clock?

David, K9DWR
 

* Scott Monks <cq_dx_de_aa0aa@yahoo.com> [2013-12-07 14:49]:

Thanks for all of the suggestions, but I didn't explain well enough
(as usual!!).

...If you move or travel, the UTC will be correct, even if your clock
shows the wrong local time...Daylight Saving Time (or Summer Time, if
you're so inclined) works correctly.......Personally, my computer is
set for local time, which is currently Eastern Standard Time with DST
adjustments as needed

This is where the problem comes in; I am usually in Mexico when
Daylight Savings Time changes and, for some unfathomable reason,
Mexico changes DST on different days than the U.S. does.�
Scott, it sounds to me like you have already described the problem. You
are using a USA timezone while you are in Mexico. You can't expect your
computer to behave correctly if you don't give it the correct
information. If you set the timezone to be correct for your location in
Mexico, the software you use will work correctly. If you leave it on
USA Eastern, it won't.

Glad you found an alternative, but you are just going to have to live
with the issue if you don't set your system correctly. :-)

Jerry,

He got the responses he did because we see the larger picture of his
computer mot working properly, which is an overall concern. He
shouldn't be having clock issues in the first place. Just masking the
problem with a "different clock" is not in his best interests. Clock
issues on a computer have a bad habit of causing unintended problems if
not addressed. In my case, I felt it more appropriate to understand the
full situation rather than just blindly recommend a clock. My
recommendation was to fix the existing clock instead, and gave some
options on how to check/verify what's going on.

73

--
David, K9DWR
#1604
david@graniteweb.com


Re: OT digital clock?

Mike Flowers
 

Apparently, much more complicated than that …

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time

 

- 73 de Mike, K6MKF, W6NAG, Secretary - NCDXC, IDXG, RRC #933, K3-P3-KPA500-KAT500 Addict, Maui

 

From: 070@... [mailto:070@...] On Behalf Of boat.anchor@...
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 7:32 AM
To: 070@...
Subject: [070] Re: OT digital clock?

 

 

Darin

I seem to recall very clearly that the USA (politician's) argument at the time was omething closely related to an energy shortage and in their in-imitable way these fine folks decided if they could implement the time change earlier a lot of heat and light would be conserved due to the fact that they would not be implemented till one hour later. Nobody stopped to think that this fantastic saving of energy at a national level was being directly offset by the additional consumption in the mornings.

Canada, being the world leader that it is, just agreed with the USA lawmakers and went along with this half baked idea thus putting North America out of sync with the rest of the world.

 

Best regards

Barry

VA7GEM

 

Now that I have had my daily rant I will quote:

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst/history.html

Brief History of DST in the United States

DST caused widespread confusion from 1945 to 1966 for trains, buses and the broadcasting industry in the US because many states and localities were free to choose when and if they would observe DST. Congress decided to end the confusion and establish the Uniform Time Act of 1966 that stated DST would begin on the last Sunday of April and end on the last Sunday of October. However, states still had the ability to be exempt from DST by passing a local ordinance.

The US Congress extended DST to a period of ten months in 1974 and eight months in 1975, in hopes to save energy following the 1973 oil embargo. The trial period showed that DST saved the equivalent in energy of 10,000 barrels of oil each day, but DST still proved to be controversial. Many complained that the dark winter mornings endangered the lives of children going to school. After the energy crisis was over in 1976, the US changed their DST schedule again to begin on the last Sunday in April. DST was amended again to begin on the first Sunday in April in 1987. Further changes were made after the introduction of the Energy Policy Act of 2005.


Re: OT digital clock?

boat.anchor@...
 

Darin

I seem to recall very clearly that the USA (politician's) argument at the time was omething closely related to an energy shortage and in their in-imitable way these fine folks decided if they could implement the time change earlier a lot of heat and light would be conserved due to the fact that they would not be implemented till one hour later. Nobody stopped to think that this fantastic saving of energy at a national level was being directly offset by the additional consumption in the mornings.

Canada, being the world leader that it is, just agreed with the USA lawmakers and went along with this half baked idea thus putting North America out of sync with the rest of the world.


Best regards

Barry

VA7GEM


Now that I have had my daily rant I will quote:

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst/history.html

Brief History of DST in the United States

DST caused widespread confusion from 1945 to 1966 for trains, buses and the broadcasting industry in the US because many states and localities were free to choose when and if they would observe DST. Congress decided to end the confusion and establish the Uniform Time Act of 1966 that stated DST would begin on the last Sunday of April and end on the last Sunday of October. However, states still had the ability to be exempt from DST by passing a local ordinance.

The US Congress extended DST to a period of ten months in 1974 and eight months in 1975, in hopes to save energy following the 1973 oil embargo. The trial period showed that DST saved the equivalent in energy of 10,000 barrels of oil each day, but DST still proved to be controversial. Many complained that the dark winter mornings endangered the lives of children going to school. After the energy crisis was over in 1976, the US changed their DST schedule again to begin on the last Sunday in April. DST was amended again to begin on the first Sunday in April in 1987. Further changes were made after the introduction of the Energy Policy Act of 2005.


Welcome new member

J Budzowski <jbudzowski@...>
 

Pse welcome new 070 Club member John AC7JM #1721...73 de Jay N3DQU


Re: OT digital clock?

ve3oij <ve3oij@...>
 

--- In 070@yahoogroups.com, Scott Monks <cq_dx_de_aa0aa@...> wrote:

This is where the problem comes in; I am usually in Mexico when Daylight Savings Time changes and, for some unfathomable reason, Mexico changes DST on different days than the U.S. does. 
The unfathomable reason is easy to fathom: The USA is the anomaly! The USA changed the dates that the USA uses DST (for the states that use DST, which isn't all of them). Canada followed suit, but most of the world kept on truckin' the way it always was. Nobody clearly understood why the US or Canada changed the dates, not even the governments of the US and Canada, I think.

It gets even better: southern hemishpere countries use an entirely different set of dates since northern "summer" time would be winter for them :)

In my house, network infrastructure all runs on UTC. The UNIX computers also run on UTC, but a user can set their own timezone variable on their shell, so any user sees whatever time zone they want to see. Windows machines get their time from my firewall, and are set however the user wants (so my radio laptop runs in UTC, but everythign else runs in Eastern). VoIP telephones get their time from the firewall and have the Eastern time formula programmed into them. Cell phones get their time from the cell network.

It's kind of cool that I can get all the devices in the house to have a pretty well-synchronized beep on the hour :)

In fact, the least accurate time in my house are the actual wall clocks and wrist watches.

73 de VE3OIJ
-Darin


LONP #249 goes to...

Charlie Trice
 

Greetings all,

Robert, KDØFIP, has submitted log evidence of over 100 PSK31 QSOs with fellow PODXS Ø7Ø Club members and has been awarded LONP certificate #249 on this 8th day of December, 2013.

Please join me in congratulating Robert for this fine achievement.

--
Vy 73,

Charlie, K8IJ


Re: OT digital clock?

cessnaflyer42
 

I'm a little confused by the situation you describe.  If I understand you correctly, when your clock changes for DST (at the wrong time, because you're in Mexico), your ham radio software no longer computes UTC correctly?

Your geographic location and its time zone should have no bearing on your computer's knowledge of UTC, as long as the computer knows what time zone it's tracking.  You could be in Beijing, or Quebec, or Berlin, and you computer could be set on Central Daylight Time, useless to your current location, but as long as it knows it's on CDT and that CDT time is the correct time in the Central Time Zone, your computer should calculate UTC correctly.  The same should still apply when on Central Standard Time, or British Summer Time, or any other time zone.

If your logging software is not computing UTC correctly when your computer is displaying the correct time in whatever time zone it thinks it's using, you should seriously consider new logging software.  That isn't a clock problem; it's a problem of your logging software not knowing how to compute UTC.

The easy alternative would be to set your computer in UTC, disable adjustments for DST, and rely on another clock for local time.

73 de NF8I,

~James


Re: OT digital clock?

Ted <pegduck56@...>
 

Scott, for satellite and JT65 modes, which require very accurate time synching,  the 'gold standard' for synching the computer time with the program is to use TimeSynch.  a zip file is found about halfway down this page:  http://www.dk1tb.de/downloadeng.htm    you can create an icon on the desktop 

GL, Ted
K7TRK


On Saturday, December 7, 2013 2:49 PM, Scott Monks wrote:
 

Thanks for all of the suggestions, but I didn't explain well enough (as usual!!).

...If you move or travel, the UTC will be correct, even if your clock shows the wrong local time...Daylight Saving Time (or Summer Time, if you're so inclined) works correctly.......Personally, my computer is set for local time, which is currently Eastern Standard Time with DST adjustments as needed

This is where the problem comes in; I am usually in Mexico when Daylight Savings Time changes and, for some unfathomable reason, Mexico changes DST on different days than the U.S. does. 

My mac only has three automatic clocks (apple U.S., Asia, and Europe).  When DST changes in the U.S., my computer dutifully changes, but that puts me 1 hr off until Mexico changes some days later.  The programs follow the automatic clock, that throws me out of sync.  This year I was trying to keep on top of it, but for the first two weeks of Nov. computer log was wrong until I got curious about why none of my LoTW contacts were acknowledged and I got an eQSL that said their time didn't match mine!

Ok, well I won't bother you all more--I think my problem is only important twice a year, and I just need to remember to check the World Time page when it is time for DST.  I just got a UTC app for my iPhone when I can check--it is just keeping it in memory during that period! 

Again, thanks for the advice--as always, you all are the greatest!  Just hope I will get a chance to work more of you during my holidays vacation!


73,
Scott     AA0AA; XE1/AA0AA






Re: OT digital clock?

Scott Monks
 


Thanks for all of the suggestions, but I didn't explain well enough (as usual!!).

...If you move or travel, the UTC will be correct, even if your clock shows the wrong local time...Daylight Saving Time (or Summer Time, if you're so inclined) works correctly.......Personally, my computer is set for local time, which is currently Eastern Standard Time with DST adjustments as needed

This is where the problem comes in; I am usually in Mexico when Daylight Savings Time changes and, for some unfathomable reason, Mexico changes DST on different days than the U.S. does. 

My mac only has three automatic clocks (apple U.S., Asia, and Europe).  When DST changes in the U.S., my computer dutifully changes, but that puts me 1 hr off until Mexico changes some days later.  The programs follow the automatic clock, that throws me out of sync.  This year I was trying to keep on top of it, but for the first two weeks of Nov. computer log was wrong until I got curious about why none of my LoTW contacts were acknowledged and I got an eQSL that said their time didn't match mine!

Ok, well I won't bother you all more--I think my problem is only important twice a year, and I just need to remember to check the World Time page when it is time for DST.  I just got a UTC app for my iPhone when I can check--it is just keeping it in memory during that period! 

Again, thanks for the advice--as always, you all are the greatest!  Just hope I will get a chance to work more of you during my holidays vacation!


73,
Scott     AA0AA; XE1/AA0AA




Re: Clock

Jerry N9AVY
 

Had a project I was working on and asked a simple question on local reflector  ... Got so many responses that the project remains unfinished for last 4 years !

Jerry



From: Dan Morris
To: 070 List Service 070 List Service <070@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [070] Clock

 
it’s amazing the kinds of responses one will get when asking a simple question or at least what he thought was a simple question!! haha

Dan Morris   KZ3T



On Dec 7, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jerry <n9avy@...> wrote:


Just my humble opinion, but I think this whole question got blown way out of proportion.  

It's like the "Engineer Net" on my local repeater ... someone asks what time it is  and they proceed to tell you how to build a clock  and why time zones were created !  :-)

I think K7TRK was just asking about a simple clock on the wall ?


Jerry  N9AVY





Re: Clock

Dan Morris - KZ3T
 

it’s amazing the kinds of responses one will get when asking a simple question or at least what he thought was a simple question!! haha

Dan Morris   KZ3T



On Dec 7, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Jerry <n9avy@...> wrote:


Just my humble opinion, but I think this whole question got blown way out of proportion.  

It's like the "Engineer Net" on my local repeater ... someone asks what time it is  and they proceed to tell you how to build a clock  and why time zones were created !  :-)

I think K7TRK was just asking about a simple clock on the wall ?


Jerry  N9AVY



Re: Clock

Jerry N9AVY
 

Just my humble opinion, but I think this whole question got blown way out of proportion. 

It's like the "Engineer Net" on my local repeater ... someone asks what time it is  and they proceed to tell you how to build a clock  and why time zones were created !  :-)

I think K7TRK was just asking about a simple clock on the wall ?


Jerry  N9AVY


Internet Time Sync

John Gianotti <w9wy@...>
 

I use Windows 7 and it synchronizes to “Internet Time”  which is really the same as time-nw.nist.gov.  Right click on the clock in the lower right corner of your desktop then follow these instructions but I bet they are already setup.

 

1)       Right click clock in lower right corner of desktop

2)      Click Date and Time

3)      Click Internet Time

4)      Verify the computer is set to sync to Internet Time.

 

That should help.  Syncs whenever you save files, no additional software to load.


LONP #248 goes to...

Charlie Trice
 

Greetings all,

John, KE4JB, has submitted log evidence of over 100 PSK31 QSOs with fellow PODXS Ø7Ø Club members and has been awarded LONP certificate #248 on this 7th day of December, 2013.

Please join me in congratulating John for this fine achievement.

--
Vy 73,

Charlie, K8IJ


Re: OT digital clock?

David, K9DWR
 

On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:52 PM, Scott <cq_dx_de_aa0aa@yahoo.com> wrote:

As long as everyone is on the subject of "clocks", I will ask about how everyone keeps their computer clocks set for UTC. The programs I use (like fldigi) all calculate their time from the computer clock. I try to keep mine disconnected from the automic sites so it won't get changed when I travel or when daylight time changes, but sometimes system updates reset this and I get caught using the wrong time. This year I had to edit about 50 log contacts that were 1hr off!

I tried several clock apps, but ALL of them (at least the ones I tried) set the time by the computer clock, which means they are no better.

Does anyone have a better method? Does everyone just use a separate clock, like being discussed here?
You don’t want to stop using “automatic sites” as you put it, they are there for a reason. They are designed to keep your clock in sync with the rest of the universe. You _want_ your locale to be updated accordingly. Depending on what type of computer system you are using, this is handled in different ways. On unix-based systems (Mac OS, Linux, etc), your system will likely be using ntp to keep the clock synced, which will present the correct time no matter what. You can easily see UTC by using the date command (e.g., date -u).

damocles:~ drock$ date
Fri Dec 6 23:14:54 CST 2013

damocles:~ drock$ date -u
Sat Dec 7 05:14:59 UTC 2013

If you are using Windows, it may be a bit more problematic, but the concept is the same. What you really need to look at is how your system is configured and see why it’s out of sync, rather than just assume something is “wrong” with external time references. By default, Windows doesn’t do “real time” updates to the clock; it periodically checks in once a week or so. Depending on the version of Windows, you can get a lot of details from the w32tm command (windows 7 gives a lot more detail than Windows XP). Instead of using the builtin w32tm, you may want to consider installing a full ntp service instead, which would be a more constant time update mechanism, and generally more reliable.

The bottom line is it’s unlikely that your “computer clock” is actually broken. Travel is probably a user error more than anything (i.e., if you know you are traveling to a new timezone, make sure you set it correctly before you use it), and DST issues shouldn’t be a problem unless the tzinfo isn’t being kept up to date (which is rare for US domestic cases).

Do you have any concrete examples of what state your system was in when it appears to be broken? What troubleshooting steps did you take to validate what you found?

73


David, K9DWR
david@graniteweb.com


Re: OT digital clock?

cessnaflyer42
 

Scott,


First, make sure your computer knows what time zone you're in (or at least what time zone you want to see). When programs get the time from the computer's clock, it's given in a particular time zone. That way, even if your computer's clock is in, say, Central Daylight Time, the program (like Fldigi) can immediately convert to UTC. If you move or travel, the UTC will be correct, even if your clock shows the wrong local time, and if you want it to show the correct local time, you should change the time zone, not the time. This will also ensure that Daylight Saving Time (or Summer Time, if you're so inclined) works correctly.


Once your time zone is straightened out, you should be able to use any of the programs that sync your clock to atomic time. Unless you're working JT65 or JT9, which have time sync requirements, or you just feel the need for sub-second precision, the software built into your operating system will handle this quite well, if you let it. The Windows Time Sync that is built-in to Windows will drift by a few seconds since it only syncs every few days, but it will do a decent job for anything but JT65/JT9.


For extra precision, ask anyone who uses JT65 or JT9 for their opinion, and you so get one of a few answers, but they are all programs designed to sync your clock to atomic time. Perennial favorites are "Dimension 4" and "Meinberg".  These programs are also aware of what time zone your computer uses relative to UTC and, as long as your time zone setting is correct, will keep the time correct, even if you change the time zone or suffer a change in Daylight Saving Time.


Personally, my computer is set for local time, which is currently Eastern Standard Time with DST adjustments as needed, and my logging software, HRD, has no trouble logging in UTC. My clock is updated every 15 minutes by Dimension 4. Windows 7, and perhaps other versions, can be set to display multiple clocks in different time zones, so I have mine displaying EST and UTC.


Good Luck, Good DX, and 73 de NF8I,


~James



---In 070@..., <cq_dx_de_aa0aa@...> wrote:

As long as everyone is on the subject of "clocks", I will ask about how everyone keeps their computer clocks set for UTC. The programs I use (like fldigi) all calculate their time from the computer clock. I try to keep mine disconnected from the automic sites so it won't get changed when I travel or when daylight time changes, but sometimes system updates reset this and I get caught using the wrong time. This year I had to edit about 50 log contacts that were 1hr off!

I tried several clock apps, but ALL of them (at least the ones I tried) set the time by the computer clock, which means they are no better.

Does anyone have a better method? Does everyone just use a separate clock, like being discussed here?

Thanks for your comments.

73
Scott AA0AA; XE1/AA0AA


Re: OT digital clock?

Scott Monks
 

As long as everyone is on the subject of "clocks", I will ask about how everyone keeps their computer clocks set for UTC. The programs I use (like fldigi) all calculate their time from the computer clock. I try to keep mine disconnected from the automic sites so it won't get changed when I travel or when daylight time changes, but sometimes system updates reset this and I get caught using the wrong time. This year I had to edit about 50 log contacts that were 1hr off!

I tried several clock apps, but ALL of them (at least the ones I tried) set the time by the computer clock, which means they are no better.

Does anyone have a better method? Does everyone just use a separate clock, like being discussed here?

Thanks for your comments.

73
Scott AA0AA; XE1/AA0AA