Date   

Re: 80m Autumn Sprint

The Maryland Crofts <croft@...>
 

Hey Ernie-

Did you get my last message about the "bad" K3VOA signal???

John

Ernest Mills wrote:


Yea! Jay,
One senior moment and the cage opens.
Always remember - He who laughs last, laughs longest. :) Ernie

----- Original Message -----
From: <AA8QQJMauch@aol.com>
To: <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [070] 80m Autumn Sprint

Hey Ernie,
Looks like it's your turn.
73 & Thanks,
Jay - AA8QQ


Check out the 070 Club website at
< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the latest information on
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--
**********************************************************************
* John & Kathy Croft * http://patriot.net/~croft *
* Silver Spring, MD * KC3T TEN-TEN 68155 * K3NJ TEN-TEN 67398 *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* -monitoring N3AUY/R 29.66 MHz (141.3 Hz)- *
**********************************************************************


Re: 80m Autumn Sprint

Ernest Mills <emills@...>
 

Yea! Jay,
One senior moment and the cage opens.
Always remember - He who laughs last, laughs longest. :) Ernie

----- Original Message -----
From: <AA8QQJMauch@aol.com>
To: <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [070] 80m Autumn Sprint


Hey Ernie,
Looks like it's your turn.
73 & Thanks,
Jay - AA8QQ


Check out the 070 Club website at
< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the latest information on
070 Club activities.
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070-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com or N3DQU@aol.com.



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Re: PSK Squelch Function and another "effect"

Dave Kjellquist, WB5NHL
 

Would you care to share your thoughts on soundcard
dynamic range, and how it
relates to, and compliments/degrades receiver
dynamic range when it comes to
weak PSK signal work. Are there any preferences WRT
sound card performance for
PSK? Are there any preferred gain combinations
(receiver gain vs soundcard
gain) that maximize receive performance on PSK-31?

Since getting into PSK-31 a couple years ago, I have
wondered if one would
benefit from a higher performance sound card; one
with greater dynamic range.

Quite honestly I really haven't seen significant
issues with soundcard dynamic range either personnelly
or in print. However, now that you ask I will check
the signal processing code vs. card specs.

My biggest issue is with the big guns and us little
guys (low power and poor antennas) within the same
3kHz xcvr AGC bandwidth. Steve, is very correct about
FM & SSB. Unfortunely, xcvr AGC action adjusts the
detection threshold. I have heard complaints about
power but frankly hadn't seen a real bad one until
last night! The brag file reported 100 WATTS output
to a TA33!!!! Given the power-bandwidth product of PSK
that is eqivalent to about a 10Kw SSB signal. It seems
to be getting worse rapidly.

Quickly is coming the day for QRP calling freq on PSK
as we all pile into the lower bands on this part of
the sunspot cycle. I guess this is good and
bad.....bad that it is needed....good that PSK is so
popular it suffers from the problems of the other modes.

Dave


Re: 80m Autumn Sprint

JACK WEST <w7ld@...>
 

Thanks Bernie,
Your explanation really helped.
Jack / W7LD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernie" <kf4fhs@ywave.com>
To: <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [070] 80m Autumn Sprint


Hey Jay,

Don't bother him, he's busy converting UTC to Local time :-)

Hey Ernie, When the big hands on the 12 and the little hands on the 8,
start callin CQ :-)

73, Bernie / KF4FHS



Hey Ernie,
Looks like it's your turn.
73 & Thanks,
Jay - AA8QQ



Check out the 070 Club website at
< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the latest information on
070 Club activities.
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Re: PSK Squelch Function and another "effect"

Bills4570@...
 

David,

I have to admit that, at first I thought Steve was pretty far flung with his
survey about PSK-31 squelch use by operators, but as usual, he has managed to
catalyze an interesting discussion. Your response was well stated and
explained some decoding funtionality that I have wondered about for some time
now.

You're not the first to recommend using the spectral display for weak signal
work, and now I know what's behind that preference.

Would you care to share your thoughts on soundcard dynamic range, and how it
relates to, and compliments/degrades receiver dynamic range when it comes to
weak PSK signal work. Are there any preferences WRT sound card performance for
PSK? Are there any preferred gain combinations (receiver gain vs soundcard
gain) that maximize receive performance on PSK-31?

Since getting into PSK-31 a couple years ago, I have wondered if one would
benefit from a higher performance sound card; one with greater dynamic range.

73, Bill Schwantes
W7QQ

Steve;
There is another "effect" relating to the color
waterfall that I have become aware of as a developer
of PSK31 sofware. Whether the waterfall colors are RGB
or CMY based unlike a greyscale the increments of
signal strength are continuous but may large steps
depending on the number of colors. In most waterfalls
the signal strength is logarthimic.

Let me illustrate the effects, suppose there are 2
stations. The first a QRP station has display strength
of 10 and the second a display strength 20. Thus, 10x
relative difference (remember logarithms). Assume the
noise floor is 3. BTW, 100x or more differences are
very common. This gives the weak station about 7db
above the noise (without heavy math, just about
copyable). OBTW, don't even try for IMD on the weak
station it will be bogus and even the strong station
in this example is suspect, but this is a different
topic for another time.

With a greyscale (usually 256 values) waterfall
display, the signal differences show as intensity
differences just above. Now for color, if we assume, 8
colors for the entire display range say 0-80. First
color 0-10, second 10-20 etc. Ooops..... The lower
signal and noise have the same color....gone!

I have contrived this example a little...but only a
little. I fundamentally do not like a waterfall
particularly color for weak signal work. The solution
is a spectrum display (which I'm adding to our Linux
Kpsk program) available on most PSK programs.

Steve, maybe if everone turns off the squelch and uses
spectrum displays we'll get some of those big gun
scores ;-)

---- 070@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I received six responses to my question on whether
any of you use
the squelch function available in PSK. As expected,
the responses
varied. Two people never use it, while the other
four use it at least
occasionally. Three of those four specifically note
that they turn it
off when working with weak signals, while the fourth
carefully
watches visually for the weak signals.

My conclusion based on this non-scientific sampling
is that the
people who responded to this question understand
what the
squelch function is, when to use it, and most
importantly when
NOT to use it. But I also think that there are many
PSK operators
who do not have this same understanding.

As a dedicated QRP operator, I recognize that my
signal is usually
one of the weaker ones on the waterfall. And I know
that it is
difficult for me to stand out in a pileup. But I
find that there are
many times when I try to respond to the CQ of a very
strong station
and it seems he can't hear me. Even if the other
station is running
100 watts, he's only 13 dB stronger than I
am--that's about 2 S-
units. (Note that antenna gain works both ways,
transmit and
receive, so the only real variables are our
transmitter powers and
our receiver sensitivities and noise levels.)

Last weekend in Delaware there were a few stations
that didn't
respond to my call, even though they were plenty
strong in my
waterfall, and their power levels weren't
drastically more than mine.
Perhaps their noise levels were higher than mine,
but I also
speculate that they may have set their squelches in
a way that
"filtered out" the weaker stations.

From a technical standpoint, I'd like to point out
that PSK acts a
lot more like SSB than it does FM. With FM, there is
a real
threshhold effect--below a certain SNR, there is
virtually no copy,
and just a fraction of a dB higher, there is very
good copy. This
type of modulation is wonderful for squelch, and you
can eliminate
the annoying background noise when there's no signal.

But PSK, like SSB, has a more gradual relationship
between SNR
and performance. Of course there is a large range of
signals that
have virtually perfect copy. But we've all
experienced the ranges of
signals that have varied from 10% copy up to 98%
copy. This is the
tricky range, where a squelch setting may eliminate
a lot of random
letters, but it may also eliminate a weak signal
with only 65%
copy. This level (65% copy) admittedly won't make
for a pleasant
ragchew. But 65% is plenty good enough, with a few
repeats, for a
contest QSO or for DXing.

I don't know of anyone who uses a squelch during SSB
operation,
especially during a contest or while DXing. Yes,
there is static, and
sometimes it's hard to make out the other station.
But we train our
ears and mind to ignore the noise and copy the voice
on the other
end. I think the same principle applies to PSK
operation. By
opening up the squelch a little bit more (or turning
it off
completely), there will be more random or erroneous
characters on-
screen. But just as you can train yourself to HEAR
through the
noise, you can also train yourself to READ through
the noise. And
sometimes that can be the difference between making
the contact
and not.

Let me encourage you to try operating without your
squelch on, or
at least opening it up more than usual. Yes, you
will see some
more garbage characters, but you'll also find that
you will be able
to copy some signals much better. And with a little
practice, I think
you'll find (as I did) that the garbage characters
won't bother you as
much as you think they will.

73,
Steve
W3HF

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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latest information on 070 Club activities.
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< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the latest information on 070
Club activities.
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Re: 80m Autumn Sprint

Bernie <kf4fhs@...>
 

Hey Jay,

Don't bother him, he's busy converting UTC to Local time :-)

Hey Ernie, When the big hands on the 12 and the little hands on the 8,
start callin CQ :-)

73, Bernie / KF4FHS

Hey Ernie,
Looks like it's your turn.
73 & Thanks,
Jay - AA8QQ


Re: PSK Squelch Function and another "effect"

Dave Kjellquist, WB5NHL
 

Steve;
There is another "effect" relating to the color
waterfall that I have become aware of as a developer
of PSK31 sofware. Whether the waterfall colors are RGB
or CMY based unlike a greyscale the increments of
signal strength are continuous but may large steps
depending on the number of colors. In most waterfalls
the signal strength is logarthimic.

Let me illustrate the effects, suppose there are 2
stations. The first a QRP station has display strength
of 10 and the second a display strength 20. Thus, 10x
relative difference (remember logarithms). Assume the
noise floor is 3. BTW, 100x or more differences are
very common. This gives the weak station about 7db
above the noise (without heavy math, just about
copyable). OBTW, don't even try for IMD on the weak
station it will be bogus and even the strong station
in this example is suspect, but this is a different
topic for another time.

With a greyscale (usually 256 values) waterfall
display, the signal differences show as intensity
differences just above. Now for color, if we assume, 8
colors for the entire display range say 0-80. First
color 0-10, second 10-20 etc. Ooops..... The lower
signal and noise have the same color....gone!

I have contrived this example a little...but only a
little. I fundamentally do not like a waterfall
particularly color for weak signal work. The solution
is a spectrum display (which I'm adding to our Linux
Kpsk program) available on most PSK programs.

Steve, maybe if everone turns off the squelch and uses
spectrum displays we'll get some of those big gun
scores ;-)

---- 070@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I received six responses to my question on whether
any of you use
the squelch function available in PSK. As expected,
the responses
varied. Two people never use it, while the other
four use it at least
occasionally. Three of those four specifically note
that they turn it
off when working with weak signals, while the fourth
carefully
watches visually for the weak signals.

My conclusion based on this non-scientific sampling
is that the
people who responded to this question understand
what the
squelch function is, when to use it, and most
importantly when
NOT to use it. But I also think that there are many
PSK operators
who do not have this same understanding.

As a dedicated QRP operator, I recognize that my
signal is usually
one of the weaker ones on the waterfall. And I know
that it is
difficult for me to stand out in a pileup. But I
find that there are
many times when I try to respond to the CQ of a very
strong station
and it seems he can't hear me. Even if the other
station is running
100 watts, he's only 13 dB stronger than I
am--that's about 2 S-
units. (Note that antenna gain works both ways,
transmit and
receive, so the only real variables are our
transmitter powers and
our receiver sensitivities and noise levels.)

Last weekend in Delaware there were a few stations
that didn't
respond to my call, even though they were plenty
strong in my
waterfall, and their power levels weren't
drastically more than mine.
Perhaps their noise levels were higher than mine,
but I also
speculate that they may have set their squelches in
a way that
"filtered out" the weaker stations.

From a technical standpoint, I'd like to point out
that PSK acts a
lot more like SSB than it does FM. With FM, there is
a real
threshhold effect--below a certain SNR, there is
virtually no copy,
and just a fraction of a dB higher, there is very
good copy. This
type of modulation is wonderful for squelch, and you
can eliminate
the annoying background noise when there's no signal.

But PSK, like SSB, has a more gradual relationship
between SNR
and performance. Of course there is a large range of
signals that
have virtually perfect copy. But we've all
experienced the ranges of
signals that have varied from 10% copy up to 98%
copy. This is the
tricky range, where a squelch setting may eliminate
a lot of random
letters, but it may also eliminate a weak signal
with only 65%
copy. This level (65% copy) admittedly won't make
for a pleasant
ragchew. But 65% is plenty good enough, with a few
repeats, for a
contest QSO or for DXing.

I don't know of anyone who uses a squelch during SSB
operation,
especially during a contest or while DXing. Yes,
there is static, and
sometimes it's hard to make out the other station.
But we train our
ears and mind to ignore the noise and copy the voice
on the other
end. I think the same principle applies to PSK
operation. By
opening up the squelch a little bit more (or turning
it off
completely), there will be more random or erroneous
characters on-
screen. But just as you can train yourself to HEAR
through the
noise, you can also train yourself to READ through
the noise. And
sometimes that can be the difference between making
the contact
and not.

Let me encourage you to try operating without your
squelch on, or
at least opening it up more than usual. Yes, you
will see some
more garbage characters, but you'll also find that
you will be able
to copy some signals much better. And with a little
practice, I think
you'll find (as I did) that the garbage characters
won't bother you as
much as you think they will.

73,
Steve
W3HF

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Check out the 070 Club website at
< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the
latest information on 070 Club activities.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
070-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com or N3DQU@aol.com.



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Re: 80m Autumn Sprint

AA8QQJMauch@...
 

Hey Ernie,
Looks like it's your turn.
73 & Thanks,
Jay - AA8QQ


80m Autumn Sprint

Bernie <kf4fhs@...>
 

Only 2 days left until the first ever PODXS070 Club PSK31 80m
Autumn Sprint.

Friday, 20-September-2002, 2000 - 0200 YOUR LOCAL TIME.

Please read the rules carefully. They can be found at:

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/leonards/80mrules.html

Direct any questions to:

kf4fhs@ywave.com

73, Bernie / KF4FHS


Re: Uhmm!

Steve W3HF
 

Ernie,

Please do not listen to Bernie he is just the contest manager and what
does he know?? You are correct with the time you have and please use
the 2000Z time Just for you!! Maybe the rest of us can make a few
contacts and get the Top Dawg...

SteveD

And most important, Ernie, note that the contest END time is
0200. We would all appreciate it if you would continue to read this
as 0200z, not your own local time, and give the rest of us a few
more hours to find contacts while you are sleeping.

Your buddy,
Steve
W3HF


PSK Squelch Function

Steve W3HF
 

I received six responses to my question on whether any of you use
the squelch function available in PSK. As expected, the responses
varied. Two people never use it, while the other four use it at least
occasionally. Three of those four specifically note that they turn it
off when working with weak signals, while the fourth carefully
watches visually for the weak signals.

My conclusion based on this non-scientific sampling is that the
people who responded to this question understand what the
squelch function is, when to use it, and most importantly when
NOT to use it. But I also think that there are many PSK operators
who do not have this same understanding.

As a dedicated QRP operator, I recognize that my signal is usually
one of the weaker ones on the waterfall. And I know that it is
difficult for me to stand out in a pileup. But I find that there are
many times when I try to respond to the CQ of a very strong station
and it seems he can't hear me. Even if the other station is running
100 watts, he's only 13 dB stronger than I am--that's about 2 S-
units. (Note that antenna gain works both ways, transmit and
receive, so the only real variables are our transmitter powers and
our receiver sensitivities and noise levels.)

Last weekend in Delaware there were a few stations that didn't
respond to my call, even though they were plenty strong in my
waterfall, and their power levels weren't drastically more than mine.
Perhaps their noise levels were higher than mine, but I also
speculate that they may have set their squelches in a way that
"filtered out" the weaker stations.

From a technical standpoint, I'd like to point out that PSK acts a
lot more like SSB than it does FM. With FM, there is a real
threshhold effect--below a certain SNR, there is virtually no copy,
and just a fraction of a dB higher, there is very good copy. This
type of modulation is wonderful for squelch, and you can eliminate
the annoying background noise when there's no signal.

But PSK, like SSB, has a more gradual relationship between SNR
and performance. Of course there is a large range of signals that
have virtually perfect copy. But we've all experienced the ranges of
signals that have varied from 10% copy up to 98% copy. This is the
tricky range, where a squelch setting may eliminate a lot of random
letters, but it may also eliminate a weak signal with only 65%
copy. This level (65% copy) admittedly won't make for a pleasant
ragchew. But 65% is plenty good enough, with a few repeats, for a
contest QSO or for DXing.

I don't know of anyone who uses a squelch during SSB operation,
especially during a contest or while DXing. Yes, there is static, and
sometimes it's hard to make out the other station. But we train our
ears and mind to ignore the noise and copy the voice on the other
end. I think the same principle applies to PSK operation. By
opening up the squelch a little bit more (or turning it off
completely), there will be more random or erroneous characters on-
screen. But just as you can train yourself to HEAR through the
noise, you can also train yourself to READ through the noise. And
sometimes that can be the difference between making the contact
and not.

Let me encourage you to try operating without your squelch on, or
at least opening it up more than usual. Yes, you will see some
more garbage characters, but you'll also find that you will be able
to copy some signals much better. And with a little practice, I think
you'll find (as I did) that the garbage characters won't bother you as
much as you think they will.

73,
Steve
W3HF


Re: Uhmm!

Bernie <kf4fhs@...>
 

You're right Steve. Man, I wish I could think a little faster hi hi.

Good Luck & 73,
Bernie / KF4FHS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen J. Melachrinos" <w3hf@arrl.net>
To: <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [070] Uhmm!


Awh Bernie, you shouldn't have told him. We might have had a
chance then! :-)


Hey Ernie,

Look again, 2000 YOUR LOCAL TIME, ain't 4PM, it's 8PM :-)

73, Bernie / KF4FHS


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Mills" <emills@NYCAP.rr.com>
To: "(GR) 070 Yahoo Groups" <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: [070] Uhmm!


Am I missing something?

The 80m Sprint starts at 4pm FRIDAY. Is this an attempt to
squeeze me
out? I will miss 2 hours operating since I will not be taking time off
work :( Bad planning guys. > Hey! I'll get ya! anyway. hi hi. >
GL to all and cu there, Ernie WM2U

Check out the 070 Club website at
< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the latest information on
070 Club activities.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
070-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com or N3DQU@aol.com.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: Uhmm!

Steve W3HF
 

Awh Bernie, you shouldn't have told him. We might have had a
chance then! :-)

Hey Ernie,

Look again, 2000 YOUR LOCAL TIME, ain't 4PM, it's 8PM :-)

73, Bernie / KF4FHS


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Mills" <emills@NYCAP.rr.com>
To: "(GR) 070 Yahoo Groups" <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: [070] Uhmm!


Am I missing something?

The 80m Sprint starts at 4pm FRIDAY. Is this an attempt to
squeeze me
out? I will miss 2 hours operating since I will not be taking time off
work :( Bad planning guys. > Hey! I'll get ya! anyway. hi hi. >
GL to all and cu there, Ernie WM2U


Re: Uhmm!

Bernie <kf4fhs@...>
 

Hey Ernie,

Look again, 2000 YOUR LOCAL TIME, ain't 4PM, it's 8PM :-)

73, Bernie / KF4FHS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernest Mills" <emills@NYCAP.rr.com>
To: "(GR) 070 Yahoo Groups" <070@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: [070] Uhmm!


Am I missing something?

The 80m Sprint starts at 4pm FRIDAY. Is this an attempt to squeeze me
out? I will miss 2 hours operating since I will not be taking time off work
:( Bad planning guys.
Hey! I'll get ya! anyway. hi hi.
GL to all and cu there, Ernie WM2U






Check out the 070 Club website at
< http://www.podxs.com/html/070_club.html > for the latest information on
070 Club activities.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
070-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com or N3DQU@aol.com.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Uhmm!

Ernest Mills <emills@...>
 

Am I missing something?

The 80m Sprint starts at 4pm FRIDAY. Is this an attempt to squeeze me out? I will miss 2 hours operating since I will not be taking time off work :( Bad planning guys.
Hey! I'll get ya! anyway. hi hi.
GL to all and cu there, Ernie WM2U


Re: Uhmm!

spdomingue@...
 

Ernie,

Please do not listen to Bernie he is just the contest manager and what does
he know??
You are correct with the time you have and please use the 2000Z time Just for
you!! Maybe the rest of us can make a few contacts and get the Top Dawg...

SteveD


DSP

N3DQU@...
 

If anyone in the group is using an outboard DSP box like Timewave, MFJ,
etc for PSK work, would appreciate the benefit of your experiences...73 de
Jay N3DQU.


80m Autumn Sprint

Bernie Leonard <kf4fhs@...>
 

Only 3 days left until the first ever PODXS070 Club PSK31 80m
Autumn Sprint.

Friday, 20-September-2002, 2000 - 0200 YOUR LOCAL TIME.

A complete list of rules can be found at:

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/leonards/80mrules.html

Direct any questions to:

kf4fhs@ywave.com

73, Bernie / KF4FHS


7X2BK

Steve W3HF
 

Algeria on 20m PSK at about 14071


VE4XA again

Bob Mitchell <VE4XA@...>
 

Hello Folks;

I am back at the home QTH after a ten day trip through North Dakota, Montana and Saskatchewan.
due to band conditions, lots of local QRN from the RV power inverter system, I had ZERO success hearing or seeing anyone's trace on 20 meters.

So after several attempts, called it quit and went back to vacationing!!!

I will be operating CK4XA starting this coming Sunday, September 22, in the evening local time. Wil continue to use this callsign until the end of October.

See you on PSK



bob